The Night She Died

[perrymason]

Since most of us look at the press of the 10th to glean the first details of the crime, I thought Id look the early ones over again, one on the evening of the 9th.. from the Star. Its interesting in that Mary Jane is assumed to have been seen after daylight taking a man into her room, theres the bit about a 10 or eleven year old child, there is a bit about someone named Lawrence that comes and stays with Mary then leaves for weeks at a time, the details about the mutilations seem accurate enough, says they had a reporter view the scene from a roof that morning, and a story that I had never seen before and thought was priceless, maybe you will too.....

Armless, But Deadly.

A year ago a young French Government official met with a terrible accident, which deprived him of both his arms. He had been married about a year. While only just convalescent, the unfortunate man was informed that during his illness his wife had been consoling herself with the attentions of a young butcher, and he determined to revenge himself. It was no easy task for an armless man, but after consideration he bought an old pair of spurs with enormous rowels. Having got a friend to attach these to his heels, he went to the room of the seducer. He found his wife. Reproaching her with faithlessness, he pushed her down, and proceeded to wound her by drawing the sharp spurs across her body and face with all his strength. When the butcher entered the cripple "butted" him and threw him on the floor and commenced to lacerate him too with the spurs. Murder would have resulted had not the enraged cripple lost his footing and fallen to the ground. About an hour after a commissionaire was attracted by the injured couple's cries, and heard the story from the avenged husband. The parties were removed to the hospital.

Maybe this guy Flamenco and Tap danced Mary to death?

The relevance thread wise on the earlier bit is the early conjecture that the morning sighting was valid, I find that interesting when placed against what can only be described as an adversarial stance with Maxwell's story in court. The source for most of the above is a Mrs Hewitt of 25 Dorset.

Best regards

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

First, we know by statements of witnesses including one of the women that heard that cry, that the phrase or similar ones were heard regularly from whatever window she hears this one.

Yes, but here we find a situation wherein a cry of "murder" by the victim is followed shortly thereafter by that same victim actually getting murderered minutes thereafter. To argue that the two were unconnected would amount to one of these rather unlikely "coincidences" that crop up from time to time. Infinitely more likely, to my mind, is that she cried "murder" because she embraced the very real and immediate prospect of being murdered.

I wouldn't read too much into the fact that neither of the women were spurred into "action", especially if they were vulnerable single women themselves. If they entertained genuine fears that a neighbour was under attack, the chances of any of them stepping into the fray and endeavouring to tackle the intruder were very slim for obvious reasons.

And thirdly, Elizabeth Prater states she could hear Mary move about in her room

There's no evdience that Prater could hear Kelly moving about after the "murder" cry, though.

if he has been already granted access to the room which the evidence supports

Ah, but it could just as easily support a situation in which the killer had not already been granted access to the room, Mike.

Best regards,
Ben

[Ben]

what I was attempting to point out was, as the blanket appeared to be rolled

No worries, Richard. I see what you mean.

But I disagree. I don't think it was rolled at all. I think it was bunched up and shoved to one side. I can't think what reason Kelly or the killer could possibly have for folding it into a obsessivly neat compacted wrap.

Regards,
Ben

[Philbee]

That is the problem Ben . We cannot suppose . They could have been playing mousy mousy with the roll .They/She might have done with or whatever with the roll previously .. not on the night . who knows . Just think about your your present bedding arrangements.. and well anything really . The point is seen from a future context what was seemingly irrellevant should not gain significance ..peace

[Chava]

I didn't tell you how it got there! All I said was "it was neatly placed... as opposed to 'roughly rolled up and chucked there' ".

How do you know it was 'neatly placed'? If you were in the room, you would be in a much better position to decide whether the blanket was folded neatly or bundled roughly, but you would still not have been able to say that. It's found between the bed and the wall. That's not 'neatly placed'. For the matter of that it's not 'roughly chucked'.

I think you'll find, Gareth, that there is no evidence in that picture to show how that blanket got there or how it was treated before it reached its final destination. Same like McCarthy. You believe one thing and I believe another. I will defend your right to believe whatever the hell you want to believe while reserving for myself the right to believe something else. Are you once more going to refuse me that right as you did last time we went around? Or can we agree that you think the blanket was neatly placed and nicely folded and I think the blanket was roughly folded and tossed aside, coming to rest in a natural slight valley between the bed and the wall.

[perrymason]

Hi Ben,

I understand your point, but we have some logistics issues with a cry being heard by what is likely an open door, and a killer having gained access to her just before she stirs and cries out. Did he attack her or shut the door first? If she is in bed when she makes the utterance, how did he get that close to her without making a sound, or knowing that room... in the dark? What disturbance prior to the cry causes Diddles to get close to his/her owner? If he is let in, all questions are answered. The door being opened and her making the cry, then the door being closed and no attack ongoing to offer any more noise. Until sleep overcomes Prater at least, so as she says, maybe 5 minutes. If so, how is it that he can be let in at that time, not cause a loud argument, and be allowed to see her undressed? And to have her let her guard down once inside.

I just dont see a man getting in on his own and getting right over Mary while she slept Ben...only waking and uttering the cry when the first blows came....and soundlessly and noiselessly enduring her murder. i believe that when Mary is killed, none of the courtyard witnesses, or the victim, were awake. But she still was, likely, at 3:45am. So was Sarah and Prater.

On the bedding between the bed and wall....I think MJK3 is evidence that it was used as a support for that shot. Its the only way you get that angle without moving the bed, which they supposedly didnt. So there is evidence that suggests it was either a found as-is location used by the photographer, or one that the photographer created using bedding not on the bed when they entered.

Best regards all.

[Ben]

If she is in bed when she makes the utterance, how did he get that close to her without making a sound, or knowing that room... in the dark?

Because she was asleep most probably, Mike.

He cound very easily have opened the door with a quiet push, entered, closed the door, and approached her bed all without waking her up from a drink-fuelled sleep. I really wouldn't worry too much about diddles. There's no good reason to suppose that she disturbed her owner because she/he/it - a cat - was aware of any noise or disturbance on the floor below and had a particular desire to alert his/her owner about it.

I just dont see a man getting in on his own and getting right over Mary while she slept Ben...only waking and uttering the cry when the first blows came....and soundlessly and noiselessly enduring her murder.

Why not? I see that easily. If Kelly was in a drink-induced slumber, the surreptitious entrance of a killer via an unlocked and latched door was hardly likely to wake her. As for "soundlessly and noiselessly enduring her murder", he must have been pretty quiet about it as the neighbours never mentioned any wild kerfuffle, most probably because the killer was prudent enough to take precautions in that regard.

Best regards,
Ben

[Philbee]

Creative photograpy Perry nay nay ! sounds too daily star for me

[perrymason]

Creative photograpy Perry nay nay ! sounds too daily star for me

I can see your skepticism rationale, but I do believe that the shot known as MJK3 was taken from that angle and position in order to preserve the site integrity.

Ben...unconvinced that the was a noiseless death, which an attack commencing with "oh-murder" would have had to have been, we have defensive posturing, which implies resistance, which entails struggle which causes noise.....there are two women awake that heard that cry, and one is in the same dwelling. I believe the absence of any evidence that any kind of physical altercation immediately precipitated or followed that cry is too powerful for that counter argument, and the cry I suggest was uttered through an open door, based on the volume reported and geographical data given by Sarah and Elizabeth.

Which could mean that your guy who entered by himself and attacked as Mary woke didnt shut the door behind him first.

All the best, and to all a goodnight.

[Philbee]

Anybody considered the possibility that blotchy ...slept .woke . killed .

[Chava]

Anybody considered the possibility that blotchy ...slept .woke . killed .

How I wish that were the case. I would love to bring Blotchy in for this. But, alas, the Ripper doesn't seem to hang around. I think he'd be more likely to fall asleep afterwards than before...

As for the bloody blanket, I can't imagine that she would take down the covers on her bed before she went out for the evening's drunk. It doesn't make sense. If she was a neat freak, and there's nothing to say she wasn't, I could see having the bed all perfectly made with the top sheet turned down over the blanket etc etc. But I can't understand rolling the blanket down in November. It would have been bitterly cold.

And on that same topic, in the days before duvets I always had 2 blankets and a coverlet to cover me, and that was in my nice warm middle-class house. I don't think just one blanket would have been enough for that room at that time of year even if the fire was burning brightly. For in the normal way of things the fire would die down and the room would cool quickly, especially with the broken window panes. I can't believe she managed with just one blanket and a sheet. She wasn't sleeping in her clothes. They really were folded neatly...

[Philbee]

Perry sorry for my flippancy seriously misread your point.... ok ,,, I could always take the fallback position of .... nobodody knows .... but I shant ,,,

[Philbee]

Chav ... blotchy needs serious re ... consideration in my view . Think about it .., First in .. last out

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
What do we know about Mary Kelly?
She appears to have been a well build woman[ what ever that meant then]
She appeared to have been good natured,
She appeared to have had a good length of distinctive hair.
She could adapt well to difficult situations.
She was a quiet woman , but was noisy after drink, and liked to sing.
She appears to have had affairs with men, during her relationship with Joe.
She was a sensitive person, who was a lot less tougher then she made out.
She was educated.
She may have had a pronounced front tooth.
She hated to be alone at nights since Barnett left.
She did not like to walk the streets alone, at least after the double event.
It was not her policy to bring men back to room 13[ although Mrs Coxs neice would have disputed that].
And most important of all she was of clean habits, and tidy.
The latter comment, is the reason why I would suggest, she was responsible for the blanket rolled back, as in making the bed upon getting up.
Regards Richard.

[Ben]

And most important of all she was of clean habits, and tidy.

Making her a big favourite to make her bed in the usual non-eccentric way, Richard, either by spreading the blanket out over the bed or folding it twice. I've never head of anyone making the bed by rolling and folding their blanket into the tiniest ball possible, though I'm sure someone will chime in any minute now with a reminder that their old aunt Doris used to make beds just like that...

Cheers,
Ben