The search for photographs overseas and No.13

[Morgan]

Hi,

This is my first post, so please forgive me if I’m asking a question that’s been asked ten times before!
I heard on a podcast that the photograph of MJK was published twice in France - once in the1890’s and once in the 1920’s. I was wondering, were copies made and handed over ‘under the table’ or was it common practice for the police to allow crime scene photographs to leave Scotland Yard for publication in another country?
It was stated that the writers of these French publications were quite recognised, so is there a chance that these writers had access to other photographs?
I’ve always believed that Joseph Martin took more photographs of MJK from different angles. If this is true, maybe copies of any missing photographs are still somewhere in France, so this is probably a stupid question, but is anyone looking at French records?

I’ve always found it quite amazing that 13 Millers Court is probably one of the most famous rooms in criminal history and no one has a photograph of it between the time the body was removed and 1928. You’d think a photographer or someone from the press would have taken a shot the room during all that time, especially before it was demolished. Does anyone know who the demolishers were? Maybe that company took a quick photo of the room before they knocked it down?

Many thanks,

Morgan

[RJM]

I’ve always believed that Joseph Martin took more photographs of MJK from different angles. If this is true, maybe copies of any missing photographs are still somewhere in France, so this is probably a stupid question, but is anyone looking at French records?

Not a stupid question, Morgan. In fact, this is how I found an earlier publication of the MJK photograph than the one that appeared in Lacassagne's Vacher l'Eventreur et les crimes sadiques (1899), along with a picture of Eddowes, which was thought to be the first time Whitechapel victim photographs were published. I eventually found De l'Eventration au point de vue medico-legal (1894) by Andre Lamoureux. Both books used the same print of the Mary Kelly photograph, which differ from the Rumbelow print and the one that was returned around the centenary. Lamoureux only published MJK and not the one of Eddowes, and was a student of Lacassagne's at one time. The latter suggested the above as topic for his doctoral thesis.

A French surrealist art magazine, Minotaure #8 (1936), published both the Eddowes and MJK pics and credited Lacassagne as the source.

There is a short list of who may have received victim photographs in France. There is a longer list of who may have provided photographs of Eddowes and Kelly. The curator in charge of the Lacassagne Collection (the Professor donated all of his material to the University of Lyon a few years prior to his death in 1924) told me that no Whitechapel photographs or other material exists in the collection, yet the material on Joseph Vacher, used in Lacassagne's book is there. I've researched other places where I think victim photographs may be found but have come up empty so far. There are leads.

Please keep in mind that many people had copies of the victim photographs providing numerous avenues to depart London and eventually arrive in Lyon. Colleagues often traded material, especially photographs. It's something that still happens today. In my book, I discussed most of the individuals who were known to have a copy of either Mary Kelly, Kate Eddowes, or both, and given what we know, how likely was it they could have passed them on to colleagues in France. Too long to go over in detail here. The number of different combinations of people who could have swapped the photographs makes for difficult and time consuming research that produces more dead ends than I care to remember. I'm still digging though. And perhaps there will someday be a 2nd edition of my book with wider distribution.

I guarantee that photographs were taken in Millers Court between 1888 and 1928. How can I be so sure. Kate Marshall murdered her sister, Elizabeth Roberts in 1898, and Kitty Ronan was murdered in 1909. The police likely would have photographed both scenes (no Kitty Ronan files have survived). It's also possible journalists and others may have done likewise. The photos haven't turned up for some reason. A person could easily have an untitled photograph of Millers Court and who would know it from thousands of other courts.

Be grateful that photographic discoveries happen all of the time. Almost all of them have been made in my lifetime: from Rumbelow, to the returned victim photographs, to Neal Shelden finding a picture of Annie Chapman in life, to Philip Hutchinson's recent find of Dutfield's Yard photographed around 1900. For all I know, the lady who took that one may have shot Millers Court as well. But you see how things turn up if we keep looking.

Cheers,

Robert

[George Hutchinson]

Hi Rob

I don't think my mystery lady did take anything else of use to us besides Dutfield's Yard, y'know. If she did, she never put it in the album along with her European vacation shots. Her shots of London were Tower Bridge, HM Horseguards, Smithfield, Tower of London and, of course, our little beauty. They're all next to each other in the album. That said, the Horseguards one is loose without a corresponding page to match it to - meaning there could have been something on the other side of the missing sheet it was once attached to. It's still unlikely this would be a Ripper site, though, as she only seemed to take one shot of the most amazing places (except at The Vatican).

PHILIP

[RJM]

Thanks for the extra info, Phil. Always appreciated.

You know me, I'm always optimistic that more photographs are around every corner. Perhaps one day that rumoured album of complete victim photographs will surface. Something like the Whitby collection you acquired may be found as well. The East End has changed so much, and seeing new photographs - whether Ripper related or not - still makes my day.

Robert

[Morgan]

Thanks Robert, your book by the way sounds fascinating - I'm going to grab a copy from Amazon.

Do you know if anyone has had a go at finding the demolition company for Millers Ct?

Cheers,
Morgan

[Sam Flynn]

Do you know if anyone has had a go at finding the demolition company for Millers Ct?

...Tap, Gently & Crumble

[George Hutchinson]

Morgan - good luck trying to get Rob's book. Copies do turn up, but they ain't cheap! They weren't cheap even when they came out, as they were very costly to print. You're looking at quite a serious investment but I don't think you'll find anyone who's shelled out for a copy who regrets it.

PHILIP