the Rent arrears

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Chava,

I assume you mean that the police always look a little askance at the man who discovers the body. Or in this case, the man who put the discovery of the body into action

...in this case, the man who sent one of his staff around to collect the rent, because - unless proven otherwise - the collection of the rent was McCarthy's reason for sending Bowyer there. Describing his actions in terms of "he put the discovery of the body in motion" is a teleological argument, implying as it does that he had prior knowledge of the murder scene that Bowyer had yet to find.

Which would be McCarthy. He sure has some 'splainin' to do...

... "I sent my man to ask for the rent, for I am a landlord", as he might have said. It certainly doesn't strike me as unusual - it's what landlords and their staff typically do, isn't it?

And, before you ask "why then?", the very same could be asked of Reeves, Cross, Paul, Davis, Diemschutz and PC Watkins from previous murders. "Oh, but Watkins was doing his duty as a police officer!", one might argue - but then, wasn't McCarthy doing his duty as a landlord? I mean, where would it stop? Reeves "just walking down the stairs" - in a brass eye! Cross/Paul "on me way to work" - oh, yeah? Davis "going for a breath of air in the yard" - as if! Diemschutz "I'd just returned from market" - what a load of pony and trap!!

Seen against that background, does a landlord saying that he sent his man to ask for the rent really sound suspicious?

[Chava]

Although, "Indian Harry" aka "Jack" Bowyer WAS the person who discovered the body...which is a big "hmmm" according to police investigators these days.

Chava,
Kelly had talked of killing herself, didn't she? That would indicate that she was a little bit worried (guilty?) about something, no?

Some newspaper reports have her as saying she'd top herself. Which may mean she was worried sick. But she could equally have well said 'I'll kill myself if I don't break tonight!!' and mean 'I hope I break tonight!' The journos would go for the more dramatic interpretation of those words.

By the way, Marlowe, I assume you mean that the police always look a little askance at the man who discovers the body. Or in this case, the man who put the discovery of the body into action. Which would be McCarthy. He sure has some 'splainin' to do...

[Marlowe]

Although, "Indian Harry" aka "Jack" Bowyer WAS the person who discovered the body...which is a big "hmmm" according to police investigators these days.

Chava,
Kelly had talked of killing herself, didn't she? That would indicate that she was a little bit worried (guilty?) about something, no?

[Sam Flynn]

I find this coincidence of her death and Bowyer being sent round just a little too pat for my liking.

If McCarthy was that much of a bastard, one might argue that it was rather remarkable that he waited until nigh on 11AM to send the rent-collector round. As it was, Bowyer - or another of McCarthy's "heavies", if they existed - would have been sent round at some point.

[Sam Flynn]

And I don't believe he was a saint.

I daresay he wasn't, but - as I said - I have no reason to suppose that he was an unmitigated sinner.

Your mileage may vary--obviously your mileage does.

... my mileage proceeds inch by inch, Chava. I find it physiologically uncomfortable to race to the finishing line.

[Chava]

Gareth, he let Kelly off 6 weeks back rent. And then he told his man to go round on the morning after she was murdered and 'try and get some money from the Kelly woman' or words to that effect. She owed a total amount of 2 pounds 7 shillings. I've done a little checking. Using the retail price index, that would be worth 187.68 pounds. Using the average earning index, that sum would be equivalent to 1.180.69 pounds. That is not a huge amount of money, but it's enough that Kelly had no hope whatsoever of paying it down. She hadn't found new employment and a big new salary. Her rich uncle in Cardiff hadn't died and left her any money. McCarthy has to write off that money. But he makes no attempt to remedy the situation. No one's come forward to say Kelly was worried about owing all that rent. (And I have to say I would be!) Kelly doesn't seem to think she'll be chucked out Unlike Cox. Who apparently owes money and is worried sick about it.

So I ask myself: are some (young, cute) tenants more equal then others? Possibly. Or is saintly Mr McCarthy taking particular care of Mary Jane Kelly because she's Irish and knows his family? Also possible. Or do McCarthy and Kelly have something else going on that we can't even begin to guess at? Maybe.

Either way, he sent Bowyer round to Kelly's room on the morning after she died. If he really wanted the money I think he could have gone himself. Especially since he'd obviously forgiven her a deal of back rent. I find this coincidence of her death and Bowyer being sent round just a little too pat for my liking And I don't believe he was a saint. So I'd like to have a chat with him. Your mileage may vary--obviously your mileage does vary.

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Chava,

Actually we know nothing of the kind. This is what you had to say on that subject on Page 1 of this thread: <Notes that Sam Flynn reported that Kelly wasn't the only MC resident in arrears> Mary Ann Cox said she couldn't sleep and my reading of at least one thing she said suggests that she owed money to someone.

Indeed, however this does not in any way negate my challenge to the suggestion that you put forward, which - to paraphrase - was that if the other residents got wind of Kelly getting away with the arrears, they'd try it on too. One Mary Ann Cox does not a "Tenants' Revolt" make.

What I said still stands - namely, that for all we know, MOST of the residents were able to pay up, and did so. I didn't say, or mean, "every SINGLE resident" - and, of course, I already knew about Cox, so I'm not being inconsistent either.

You may have a rosier vision of McCarthy than I do, but I haven't seen any references to this gentleman, contemporary or more recently, that suggest he is a benevolent philanthropist.

I'm not suggesting that he was - I'm just suggesting that he was a human being. I think I'm on safe ground there.

As to contemporary evidence that he wasn't such a bad egg? Well, it seems at least one of his tenants wasn't that scared of him that she couldn't pop into his shop for a few minutes' chat on a cold morning; some remained on his books for several years; and his surviving family remember him as somewhat more 3-dimensional than the Arthur Hardings of this world might have led us to believe.

Your point about Rachman is interesting, inasmuch as there were plenty of proto-Rachmanites charging (proportionally) extortionate rents in the Whitechapel slums. However, McCarthy was but one of many if seen in that light, and he was no means unique. Even if he were, charging a saucy rent doesn't make him an inveterate bastard. Whether I wear rose-tinted spectacles or not (and I don't), I have seen no evidence whatsoever that depicts him as being bereft of common decency.

[Supe]

Chava,

I'm not sure an apology was in order, but in any case thank you. We all get a little annoyed from time to time and that is too bad because these message boards are a wonderful way to exchange ideas. So keep those ideas coming--all of you.

Don.

[Chava]

Don, I'm sorry. I was annoyed and took a scatter-gun approach!

The best,
Chava

[Supe]

Chava,

You are dismissing McCarthy because you don't think it could be him.

Yep, and you consider him "a person of interest" because of what you think. Politics, horseracing and, it would seem, Ripperology are all built upon differences of opinion. So be it. You may follow the McCarthy trail, I won't (or at least so far as I think it leads to the Ripper) but I fail to understand how my dismissal of your suspect is such a cause for concern. And considering my acumen backing politicians and horses that may well be an argument in favor of your theory.

perhaps you will never again tell me how best to use my energy. That is disrespectful.

Good grief, what is happening on the boards that everyone is so touchy lately? Would that you were around in the golden age of posters like David Radka. As it is, I did no such thing as tell you. I simply voiced my opinion.

I, for one, would love to know what that agreement was about...

We all would. At least I have put my idea about the "arrangement" in writing, available in the Dissertations section. I'm not going to bother going over it again, especially since I was probably more eloquent then.

Don.

[Chava]

As far as we know, they didn't. As far as we know, most of them would have been in a position to pay, and would have done so.

Actually we know nothing of the kind. This is what you had to say on that subject on Page 1 of this thread:

It's worth remembering that Kelly was not the only tenant to be in rental arrears, and that Miller's Court did not have a perpetual "No Vacancies" sign outside it.

Mary Ann Cox said she couldn't sleep and my reading of at least one thing she said suggests that she owed money to someone. I've no idea who she owed money to, but if she was in debt she may have had a hard time paying the rent.

You may have a rosier vision of McCarthy than I do, but I haven't seen any references to this gentleman, contemporary or more recently, that suggest he is a benevolent philanthropist. The only suggestion along those lines is made by the gent himself when he tried to explain the reasonable question 'why did you let Mary Jane run up that rather large amount of back-rent?' McCarthy may or may not have been an East End version of Rachman, but he wasn't renting Model Homes for Model People.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Chava,

If Kelly is allowed to run up the rent, and other tenants hear about it, they might think they could give themselves a little rent-vacation as well, and what would, or could he do about that?

As far as we know, they didn't. As far as we know, most of them would have been in a position to pay, and would have done so. Such is human nature - another facet of which is compassion and sympathy, in which it's possible that McCarthy was entirely lacking, but for which we have no evidence.

McCarthy is a landlord. That's his main income..

...actually his main income was from the bulk of his room rental business, of which Kelly's contribution would have constituted but a minuscule fraction. Don't forget his chandler's shop, either - he might have sold more than enough in candles, soap and potatoes in a mere couple of days to cover Kelly's 4/6 per week.

Not all who default on their rent get automatically evicted, presumably because not all of them have a landlord whose heart has been swapped for a swinging brick.

[Chava]

Actually Joe had been away for a couple of weeks by at least one of his accounts. But the room was rented in Kelly's name. McCarthy could have had them out at any time.

By the way, I do not assert that McCarthy was pimping his more unfortunate tenants. Many people believe that, but I don't think it's at all likely.

Nor do I think it's likely that McCarthy was a benevolent Santa Claus, always there to lend a helping hand. If Kelly is allowed to run up the rent, and other tenants hear about it, they might think they could give themselves a little rent-vacation as well, and what would, or could he do about that? At the very least it would be inconvenient having to hear and deal with a whole bunch of 'I'm out of work. And you let Mary Jane run up a bill...' McCarthy is a landlord. That's his main income. Having tenants who think he won't throw them out if they run short is extremely bad for business. True, he could have sworn Kelly to silence, but if I was him I wouldn't count her being able to hold her tongue. And if he did enter into some kind of agreement with her, I, for one, would love to know what that agreement was about...

[Sam Flynn]

The rent arrears were run up by Mary and Joe, not just Mary. Joe had lost his job and had only been gone from Millar's Court, a couple of days.

Very, very good point, Miss M.

[miss marple]

rent

The rent arrears were run up by Mary and Joe, not just Mary. Joe had lost his job and had only been gone from Millar's Court, a couple of days.
Mary did not take to the streets again, till after Joe left and he had no more money to give her. So McCarthy's generosity in letting the rent slide included Joe as well. May of his tenants were probably behind with the rent. Also perhaps there was an Irish thing going, taking care of their own, Perhaps Joe had been useful to McCarthy in some way.
The idea that Mccarthy was a pimp is ridiculous for the following reasons.
None of the women were full time whores, but seemed to resort to it, when desperate, most of them were in relationships. They only charged fourpence. which they then spend on alcohol.
Any pimp would have been bankrupt if he had to rely on the irregularity and unreliablity of the c5 Miss Marple