What happened in No. 13

[Blackkat]

Okay I'm helping Sam out. He posted a really great question about what the photos of MjK can tell us, and it's easy to get off topic with that, and start talking about what you may or may not think happened in the room, instead of just sticking with what the photos can tell us. So, I decided to post this question here so that we could give our opinions of what we think happened in MjK's room.

I do think she was already on the bed when the killer came into the room. I think she was on the left side of the bed (if standing at the foot of it looking towards the head of the bed) I do think she had went to sleep after her last customer. I somewhat think she went to bed after her last customer with only her chemise on, but I do wonder if she didn't where her other intimates went. (Does anyone know?) I wonder if she had them on if the killer could have taken them off after cutting her throat.

I have other things too but I want to give everyone else a chance to answer.

[FutureM.D.]

I believe that her clothes were used to feed the fire. I know I'm most likely alone in this belief, but I don't believe this was a "sustained" attack (many hours) as most people believe. Given Jacks penchant for inflicting considerable damage in a relatively short time span (as evidenced in the Eddowes slaying) I feel it is unlikely that the attack lasted more than 1hr30min. If it did, why did he end the mutilations? Why not deflesh the calf or the arm? Perhaps even try his hand at disjointing? Violent fits in psychopaths typically don't last hours on end, especially if we consider him a sexual sadist. After awhile wouldn't he be, ahem...spent? in every meaning of the word? Any thoughts?

[Chava]

I think it's possible she wasn't a Ripper victim at all.

I think that attack was more personal than the others. And I think she knew her killer or at least had had some prior dealings with him.

On the other hand I also think it's possible that he did so much to her out of anger and surprise that she fought him back. There are defensive wounds on her hands. He wouldn't have been expecting that.

I think it's possible she had gone to bed for the night. Alone. She was wearing what looked like nightclothes, and even if they weren't, I doubt she would strip right down if she was expecting to go out again. Women's clothes at that time took a lot of getting on and off!

Which means it's also possible that Blotchy-Face or Mr A had suggested an all-night stay. On the other hand, it's possible that Blotchy Face left Kelly to settle down, loitered in the doorway of Millers Court until he thought she was drowsing off in bed, crept back in and killed her. Maybe for singing one too many rounds of A Violet I Picked From My Mother's Grave When A Boy. BF was described as wearing a billycock hat, but Sarah Lewis could have been mistaken.

And I think the attack lasted no more than 30 minutes or so. And maybe as short as 15 minutes.

[Robert]

I think he took his time over the mutilations. And I suspect that the table wasn't originally beside the bed, but in front of the fire, with the children's clothes on it to air. When Jack decided he needed somewhere to put the flesh he grabbed the table, hurling the clothes on it into the fire.

Just my speculation.

[Blackkat]

Okay but was she laying next to the wall or was she in the center of the bed?

The table might have been moved. I can see the killer moving it from the fireplace area, to the side of the bed. That would catch the door when it was opened, and perhaps the killer thought if that happened they(whomever opened the door) would think MjK was taking care of a customer.

[kensei]

You snooze, you lose- I missed the begining of the "her last moments" thread and by the time I saw it it had grown to over a dozen pages, and I hate to chime in that late, so I'll post a few of my thoughts here.

I feel that Astracan Man was Mary's killer and was JTR, with his knife in the package he was carrying, dressed as he was that night rather than his usual "dark overcoat and deerstalker or peaked cap" as a disguise since he knew by that time that he was the most hunted man in the world. I've had it said to me before in protest that any such disguise would have been designed to attract less attention, not more, as in "what's such a well dressed man doing on Dorset Street?" Well, that makes sense, but we're talking about a disturbed mind so good sense goes out the window. I've wondered if he might have felt no fear about walking the mean streets in that outfit because in his mind he knew he was the most dangerous thing out there. How ironic it would have been if that attitude had ended up making Jack the Ripper go down at the blade of some two-bit mugger.

What happened in #13? Mary and Astracan met at around 2:00 and the cry of "Oh murder" wasn't heard for nearly two more hours. That is a lot of time to account for if we assume the cry was Mary's, but maybe it wasn't. (Is that really what you'd expect her to cry out when she saw the knife?) Maybe it was the cry of some anonymous woman passing by who saw a man emerge from Miller's Court holding a knife and a bloody bundle containing Mary's heart. Ok, I'm just speculating.

Numerous witnesses attest that Mary was getting progressivley more drunk. In the debate over whether she was asleep or awake when attacked I don't think I've seen it suggested that she PASSED OUT while interacting/fooling around with Astracan. I think she was unconscious when attacked, and would almost certainly have been roused once the attack began but not enough to put up much of a fight. The wounds on her left arm look too severe to me to be defensive wounds- I think they are just bits of flesh the Ripper chose to remove for whatever reason just as he did to the rest of her. Her last moments would have been very fast and confused- jolted out of a drunken stupor by sharp pain, then quickly dying from cut throat.

Again, just speculation, but I also have the impression that in this, his first and only indoor murder with privacy, Jack may have disrobed at least down to being shirtless if not more, with the fire burning for warmth as well as light, both for sexual purposes and to avoid bloodstains on his clothing.

Admittedly, it's all guesswork. The hows and whys of a deranged mind can't be rationalized with common sense.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Was the broken window next to the door just a myth or genuine? Because I always assumed Jack was invited into her room as a customer, rather than crept in by reaching in through the crack and opening the door.

I never was too convinced Jack actually killed Mary Kelly, but now I'm inclined to think he did. Sure enough there were some other nasty characters in the area back then, of course there was, but it seems a bit unlikely that they'd have the strong stomach do to what happened to Mary Kelly. And if Jack did kill her, I think he stopped because he chose to. He wouldn't exactly be able to top his latest job would he? That would be his ultimate high, assuming he was doing it for kicks. I don't buy into the 'serial killers won't stop till they do get buckled, are institutionalized or perish' argument; everyone thinks and acts differently, even killers, and Jack was one of the most original murderers there ever was.

And I think I just went slightly off-topic.

[kensei]

Was the broken window next to the door just a myth or genuine? Because I always assumed Jack was invited into her room as a customer, rather than crept in by reaching in through the crack and opening the door.

The broken window was indeed genuine- it happened in a heated argument between Mary and her boyfriend Joe Barnett. There's a photograph that shows it. It isn't relevant to the murder, only to the discovery of the body by Thomas Bowyer who saw Mary's body the next morning when he looked in through the broken space.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

The broken window was indeed genuine- it happened in a heated argument between Mary and her boyfriend Joe Barnett. There's a photograph that shows it. It isn't relevant to the murder, only to the discovery of the body by Thomas Bowyer who saw Mary's body the next morning when he looked in through the broken space.

Ah! Cheers for clearing that up.

[BLUE WIZZARD]

Joe told the police that the window was broken in the heat of an argument.

Has anyone else said that they nocticed it broken before her death?

[Chava]

Joe told the police that the window was broken in the heat of an argument.

Has anyone else said that they nocticed it broken before her death?

It's a good question. I believe a number of witnesses referred to it, and McCarthy, who was the landlord, spoke of it as well. She stuffed rags in it to keep the drafts out. There was also an old coat hung over it as a kind of curtain, but I imagine that would have been there anyway for privacy.

[LadyG]

As I understand it, the room is about 12 x 12, with the bed against the same wall as the door, yes? Bed paralell to the window wall, fireplace opposite the door. I speculate there was a blanket or other drape over the larger window, does anyone have hat info? As far as Mary's wardrobe was concerned, she likely wore everything she owned, else it would have been pawned over time. Found in chemise, though I confess for over 30 years I have thought she still wore at least one stocking and garter on the right leg, garter visible under the knee. A curious picture, admittedly as her thigh was cleaned to the bone, and more than likely once I read every page of the Casebook, somewhee the true explanation of what I am seeing will be found. It would not take her long to disrobe-- more than likely she would have normally slept in her clothes, except for having clients, for sake of expediancy, and just prior to the killing with a window broken. A lady of easy virtue in a lower class section of any city possibly did not have drawers, as accommodating clients between her thighs and not internally would render drawers pointless as well as filthy in no time. I believe her clothes as well as the clothes of the children left by a neighbor were used for the fire. And I believe (my opinion, mind you) that the murderer was indeed Jack, whose peculiar crimes had escalated, as with most serial killers, and an interior location was at this point required. She was reportedly singing for alot of the morning, whether the killer was present or not, and doubtless once he in fact subdued her, spent a good deal of time with her. Not so sure he would have stripped down more than removing an overcoat, as he probably was unaware the room key had been lost and entry by unlocking the door through the window hole was necessary (or have I been mislead in this information?) So, he might have remained clothed in order to make a quick exit, should someone else arrive. Tossing on a long overcoat would cover clothing that was doubtless pretty rank with blood. Besides, the act of stripping off places one in a vulnerable position, even if only on a psychological level and I do not think Jack was the sort to relinquish any amount of control in any situation.

[Mrs.Bucket]

Imagining this was JTR, we have to remember these kind of killers are narcissistic. They think they are untouchable. I see no reason why JTR, knowing that he had the opportunity to get "down and dirty" with this one, didn't take his time and disrobe at least partially. If he had a full-length coat, he could have easily just removed that and covered up the gore afterwards just by putting it back on. Of course, being that most people think he was a man of some means, this causes its own problem since he probably would have paid to have his laundry done. If he had enough money, he would have had a valet of sorts. Of course, I supposed he could have disrobed once getting home and tossed it into his own fire.

I think MJK probably disrobed on her own. It seems that you could get a good amount more by taking a john to a warm room where he gets a better view than he'd get in the street. That's probably why she told Mr. Astrakhan he'd be comfortable. But I am about to digress...

That being said, I think there's a lot to be said for this not being JTR. It seems way too personal on a certain level. Especially with the level of mutilation to the face. Often when you see extensive mutilation to the face the killer knows the victim.

On the other hand, I think at some point in this post, someone mentioned that JTR got his jollies off enough on this one to be done. I have acutally theorized that for some time myself. I am wondering if the killer knew MJK, that she was the trigger that started him on this road and that when he got the opportunity, he exacted the revenge against her that he wanted.