What the photos may tell of her last moments

Hi Nats,

I've only referred to what I believe to be a sock and a rolled-up blanket, and suggested that the sock (if such it is) being draped over the rolled-up blanket might indicate that Kelly was removing her hosiery at the point she was killed. This may suggest that the killer attacked her before she'd had a chance to remove the other stocking. None of this has anything to do with Mary's mutilated remains, you'll be glad to hear.

I had to check back to see what you said Sam, and I believe both our responses to Nats indicate that the body itself is not the focus here, its how it came to be on the bed partially dressed, and if that indicates anything about her last minutes.

I have to say though Gareth, that the only accreditted witness account of someone entering Marys room occurred at 11:45pm on the 8th, so at what time do you think this undressing might have taken place? After the singing stops and the lights are out at 1:30am? Before? Sometime later on that morning?

There is no accreditted witness that sees her alive, in or outside her room, after her arrival, coming or going, so any trip out to collect a client is by neccessity, unsupportable with any known accreditted evidence. Not saying it didnt happen, just that you have no way at all at this time to prove a trip occurred.

Leaving the ONLY conclusion based on whats accepted as valid testimony, she was in her room, and likely asleep, because the only possible noise we can link to Mary or that room after 1:30am is a cry at approx 3:45am...leaving one to explain why she is still dressed after being in her room with the lights out and no noise for over 2 hours. And why when she starts to undress after waking, the noise of the attack mid-undress isnt heard by two women who were alerted to the cry.

That Mary knew her killer enough to be partially undressed in front of him is a given, whether thats because it was her professional demeanor, or because she knew him personally is the question.....and the evidence for any paying customer entering Marys room at any time is lacking any supporting statement by anyone that knew her, or valid witness testimony.

edited...to add,...Mary is the only Canonical that didnt have to pay for a bed the night she is killed, she had her own...in her own name.


Ok.....Im off for a few days, best regards to all.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam and Mike,
Monty often uses just one word to convey his thinking and if I could do the same here the word would be "respect"---at all times needed for these images of Mary"s terribly mutilated remains.

Hi Nats,

I've only referred to what I believe to be a sock and a rolled-up blanket, and suggested that the sock (if such it is) being draped over the rolled-up blanket might indicate that Kelly was removing her hosiery at the point she was killed. This may suggest that the killer attacked her before she'd had a chance to remove the other stocking. None of this has anything to do with Mary's mutilated remains, you'll be glad to hear.

Sam and Mike,
Monty often uses just one word to convey his thinking and if I could do the same here the word would be "respect"---at all times needed for these images of Mary"s terribly mutilated remains.
Take Care
Best
Norma

Hi Norma,

Im off for a day or two, but Im sure you know both Sam and I well enough to know we certainly do respect the womans memory... seen in those terrible images...what this is about I believe is the "story" that ends up with her there, as seen in MJK1. And frankly the life of a street unfortunate does come with some unseemly acts and actions.

I may not agree with what Sam sees here, but I do know that he is respectful, and so am I.

Cheers Nats, my best to you.

[Natalie Severn]

Glenn,
Thanks for that information.It corresponds with what I was thinking was happening---that he was having a full blown psychosis.



Sam and Mike,
Monty often uses just one word to convey his thinking and if I could do the same here the word would be "respect"---at all times needed for these images of Mary"s terribly mutilated remains.
Take Care
Best
Norma

[Blackkat]

Sara,

I agree. I've always thought that Jack made his victims think that the deed was about to be done, getting them in a position easy for him to strike. From behind, but perhaps with MjK it was a tad bit different. I do think this photo shows that she was on the bed,but I think she may have been laying close to the wall, and on her back when he cut her throat. Making the sprays on the wall. She may have fought somewhat - however short (cuts on arm and thumb) I do also agree that she had taken off her other garmets before bed leaving on her chemise (may be because of a previous customer)

(I can't go into what else I think happened from reports since we aren't going off of what may have happend - I think I will follow Sams lead and offshoot that question elsewhere to stay respectful to the thread)

Good summing up Michael.

For me, the JrT murders show all the signs of being done whilst the victim is prepared for intercourse from the rear, which would be typical of sex with a man you didn't know - it's less personal, and easier if upright. And easier for an attacker to draw his knife too

In this case she might have already had sex, and turned over to sleep, esp if the killer was known to her - but my guess is that they lay down 'spoons' and instead of taking her from behind in the way she expected, it was done in the fatal manner.

But I don't believe JtR was interested in actually having sex with his victims

Hi Nats,

I really dont think Sam is indulging any baser instincts here, I think he hoped that he might further his belief that the scene shows us somehow that she was attacked while undressing for a client....something which the photo shows no evidence of. And something that would be a singular event based on the fact that no-one who knew Mary claimed she ever brought men to her room as clients. In fact she only had approx 8 mights alone in that room to do so, so that behaviour after Joe had left would surely have been noticed by her neighbours.

She easily could have slept in that state until approx 3:45am, and since no-one accreditted ever sees her leave after 11:45pm, or return, thats not an unfair suggestion of why she was found partially dressed....she was in that state when the killer arrived.

See...the evidence says he must have arrived alone and she was inside the room at the time....but shh....thats not what some want to believe.

Its not tittilation he's after, its validation.

The pictures show us nothing more than a woman in her room in her bed partially undressed and murdered, found in the state and location she was attacked in. Suggesting in venue and dress, some comfortable intimacy with her killer.

Best regards.

I responded to your post Ben, but for some reason it ended up back a page as post #38??

Cheers

Hi Mike,

I agree with much of your post, but as for:



I wouldn't say there's much evidence for that. If she went to sleep after 1.00am, say, I'm not sure why she should have shed more garments.

Best regards,
Ben

I didnt want a direct communication to go unanswered for a few days so heres my answer Ben,..and thanks for siding with much of the post,..

That line isnt my belief at all, it is what has to transpire if we are to believe Mary was attacked while undressing, based on the evidence suggesting, as you and I believe, she never left the room. I was illustrating that to have her undress for a client, it should also factor in that she was not seen by any legitimate witness leaving her room, and her room was silent and dark by approx 1:30am, leaving us to surmise she was asleep for at least some of the two hours that go by before anything that might possibly be sounds from Mary, or her room in the court, are heard by witnesses..at approx 3:45am.

Covering my bases is all Ben, Sam misses nothing.

Im working long hours the next few days, so Ill catch up with you later in the week.

All the best Ben, all.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Are you sure about that Glenn? I ask only because I havent ever been able to study this photo in all my time on the boards ,it is just too gruesome to bear. However,a psychotic episode produced in one person I know a small painted antique wooden statue seriously burned down one side,destruction of limbs down one side and the middle of the head dented.No rhyme or reason at that stage of the psychosis.

Hi Natalie,

I don't have any problem with studying the photo in detail - I am afraid that I am getting used to these kinds of pictures and I have seen several that are far worse.
And what I see on this particular photo corresponds quite well with what I've seen on crime scene photos where the offender has beeen subject to a psychotic episode. There is nothing controlled about, and there is also a lot of blood. It is a messy crime scene and nothing really to indicate that it is in any way the work of an experienced killer.

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

Thank you, Nats. I've yet to mention Mary's private parts - and, to be honest - I don't think that within the context of this thread there'd be any need to. As I said, I'm interested in what those pictures might tell us about what happened to Mary leading up to her death.

[Natalie Severn]

Now, that is truly offensive stuff, and untrue.

Well if I am wrong I apologise but I can assure you that it read badly.Maybe there is a need to be ultra careful here ,especially when discussing Mary"s private parts.

[Sam Flynn]

You are getting off on it and you know it.

Now, that is truly offensive stuff, and untrue.

[Sam Flynn]

Nats,

AP went off on one of those crusades he usually reserves for Colin Wilson. Perhaps you might be better aiming your sanctimony at AP, who is apparently quite willing to prostitute victims' memories by playing politics with their deaths.

I'm interested in what might have led up to Mary's demise, and the photos might be able to help us there. I'm certainly not "titillated" by any of it, I can assure you. Despite appearances to the contrary, I really don't possess a dirty enough mind.

[Natalie Severn]

You're inordinately touchy about this "sex" thing, aren't you, AP? Why not have a quick J Arthur? I'm sure it'll help clear the tubes.

While you're doing that, I'll just point out that attempting to reconstruct the sequence of events leading up to a murder victim's demise are of very real relevance and interest, and aren't turgid or banal in the least, except perhaps to those with an axe to grind.

Finished already? Thou grindest thy axe too vigorously, perchance...

This is truly offensive stuff Sam.Mary Kelly was a human being who was indeed slaughtered like an animal but as a human being her memory deserves respect. The way your exchange reads is as though you are somehow "titillated" by the way she undressed herself and want to dwell on the detail.Its ridiculous to make the excuse that its all to solve her murder.You are getting off on it and you know it.
Norma
psst -and Ap is quite right in this instance .

[Sam Flynn]

Yeah Sam, like I go into the co-op to buy a leg of lamb and then I want a story of how that lamb was a'gambolling across some meadow, or maybe in a stall awaiting some ram to service her, or had just been sheared, or maybe exported to the Middle East after Halal slaughter, or maybe a shocet had shicated it... the girl was slaughtered.
How, why, whom are immaterial.
Was she ready for sex or bed?
How banal and turgid is that?

You're inordinately touchy about this "sex" thing, aren't you, AP? Why not have a quick J Arthur? I'm sure it'll help clear the tubes.

While you're doing that, I'll just point out that attempting to reconstruct the sequence of events leading up to a murder victim's demise are of very real relevance and interest, and aren't turgid or banal in the least, except perhaps to those with an axe to grind.

Finished already? Thou grindest thy axe too vigorously, perchance...