Any similarities with the photo and the illustration?!

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

Chris Scott has presented excellent copies of the crime scene photos!

Now, that got me the following idea; do you people think, that there are any similarities with the crime scene photo and the illustration?!

All the best
Jukka

[Scott Nelson]

Oh yeah. They look like the same person to me.

[George Hutchinson]

^ I shouldn't be saying this, but that's one of the funniest posts I've ever seen on this site.

PHILIP

[perrymason]

Jukka,

There may be similarity in the jaw line, both being broad, but its kinda hard to re-construct her face based on whats left to even compare "notes" as it were.

Best regards J.

[Sara]

A friend of mine who was an artist (he died last year) told me the way to identify a face when it was unclear was to use the proportions- nose to chin, nose to forehead etc, distance between the eyes - this is how artists make people recognisible even when distorting other elements of their features (eg he gave the Tate a telling off for describing a Bacon portrait as Muriel Belcher when it was another mutual friend of theirs, whom he easily identified from the shape of the her face).

We have no way of knowing how accurate the Kelly drawing is, so that's no help in this instance: I think it looks quite standardised, idealised even. Didn't the coroner say Kelly was malnourished?

[Pippin Joan]

We have no way of knowing how accurate the Kelly drawing is, so that's no help in this instance: I think it looks quite standardised, idealised even. Didn't the coroner say Kelly was malnourished?

From descriptions I've read, Kelly was a tall, somewhat portly young woman. I noticed from the full crime scene photo that she had quite slender wrists and hands. However, reports say she was full-figured or stocky. Eddowes was definitely declared to be malnourished. Her postmortem photos show a pitiful wreck of a woman.

[Sara]

Eddowes it was, you are correct, thanks!
I've read a lot of stuff on here in the last fortnight and it's easy for a newcomer to the arcana and detail of all this to get confused

[Khanada]

From descriptions I've read, Kelly was a tall, somewhat portly young woman. I noticed from the full crime scene photo that she had quite slender wrists and hands. However, reports say she was full-figured or stocky.

For what it is worth, Mary Jane's hands and arms alone may not be worth much in terms of assessing whether she was or was not "stout" or "portly" -- it's possible to have a plump body and not have the same condition obtain in the arms and legs.

I had a great aunt who was a diabetic who was notorious for not following her diet -- quite portly in the torso, with chicken legs and wrists and hands not far in shape to Mary Jane's... Perhaps it was the diabetes and lack of proper diet, but...

[Sam Flynn]

One thing I will say - and this could simply be imagination on my part - is that both drawing and photograph seem to show a dimpled chin.

[perrymason]

One thing I will say - and this could simply be imagination on my part - is that both drawing and photograph seem to show a dimpled chin.

I hope youre sitting down Sam, because I think I'd agree with that.

Its a shame that when asked to describe someone most people tend to focus on the height, weight, hair color, eye color and manner of dress, almost all of which could be fudged by someone intending to do so,...when the shape of the face, relationship of eyes to nose, the parameters mentioned earlier for reconstructions would be far better tools to identify someone with I think.

I suppose fleeting glimpses is what causes that.

Best regards Gareth.

[Jane Coram]

Hi Jukka,

You are probably better off widening the 'source' information you use in order to make a comparison........which isn't saying much as what there is in the way of information is pretty sparse in Mary's case.

Sara is correct in saying that the proportions of the face in cases like this are about the best bet. You can at least narrow it down a bit to 'type of face', that is heart shaped, long, wide forehead, high cheek bones etc., which is better than nothing.

You can fill in some gaps with the written descriptions....... and you can also use certain racial characteristics to narrow it down a bit.....for instance, the Irish, traditionally do have certain features and colouring......although it's hardly an exact science and like as not she didn't look anything like the racial stereotype. She does appear to have had dark blond, or strawberry blond hair though, which is consistent with Celtic characteristics.

On Sam's point about the dimple.......could be, that is actually quite a common feature amongst the Irish........it's impossible to tell though whether it's a dimple or just a cut. Having said that, it's one of the easiest things to convey in a written or verbal description of a person.......a dimple in the chin is something that almost anyone can describe accurately......so a newspaper artist had at least a chance of getting that right!

Unfortunately, when it comes to portraits, if the newspaper artist were working from life, they tended for the most part to be pretty good.......the sketches of McCarthy and Bowyer for instance, I would say are spot on.......but when it came to identikit pictures from descriptions.......probably not so accurate.

Does that sketch look anything like Mary? Probably more so than the one of the front of Illustrated Police News where she looks like a pudding with currants in.......but that's not saying much.

Much love

Jane

xxxx

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Jane!

Well, in fact, the picture I made of her on front of the viewer -the one in black dress on the "Some works of art, please!" -thread - was a compromise of all the contemporary illustrations I found.

This version I presented on this thread seems to be a variation of the one on "Penny Illustrated Paper". Was that one the very first version of this illustration?

All the best
Jukka

[Ryan_Miller]

I'd like to know why it has been stated that Mary Jane Kelly rarely, if ever, wore a hat, but contemporary illustrations depict her with a hat? Did the illustrators just draw pictures of random women and claim that they were the victim?

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Ryan!

Maybe Joe Barnett gives us the contemporary answer:

"...Barnett states at the inquest that he left her because she was allowing other prostitutes to stay in the room. "She would never have gone wrong again," he tells a newspaper, "and I shouldn't have left her if it had not been for the prostitutes stopping at the house. She only let them (stay there) because she was good hearted and did not like to refuse them shelter on cold bitter nights."

All the best
Jukka