Revealing Mary Kelly

[Blackkat]

Hey all, I don't know if this question has been asked. I know that we don't have much info on MjK except a few stories, rumors, and things that have been pieced together. I wanted to pose this question:

"What would be needed to reveal definates about Mary Kelly?"

Besides of course finding census records, what pieces would you like to see surface that would disclose more information on her? Other threads have discussed photos, and family - but if you could see or get your hands on any other evidence pertaining to MjK what would it be?

[diana]

My wish would be DNA. There are people compiling databases where DNA can be correlated with the person's surname.

http://www.dnalist.net/

[Blackkat]

Thanks for a reply - that would be awesome to have indeed.

[Tomtit]

How about relatives, descendants, with detailed information about their great grandparent or great aunt who mysteriously disappeared? I'm assuming they wouldn't know what happened to her because they didn't know she was killed by Jack the Ripper.
DNA would then come into play.
Many people are doing online genealogical research. If Mary's descendants are doing it, their searches must have turned up Mary Jane Kelly research going on here and elsewhere. Why wouldn't they have made the connection? Her history or her name doesn't match. I do think it was her real name though and not another alias. Why adopt the name Marie Jeanette if your name isn't Mary Jane?

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Tomtit!

And welcome aboards!

The thing is, that many of us have tried to track down the real Mary Kelly from LVP Ireland, Wales and London. Some have been very good choices, but the final straw is still needed to find that needle in the haystack of Mary Jane Kellies...

I think, that Mary Kelly was an alias, because no-one has find her for sure yet. Though, getting a letter from Ireland would indicate some relative knowing her wereabouts. But not necessarily her mother, as she stated to McCarthy.

All the best
Jukka

[Chris Scott]

The main source for alleged information about Kelly and her background are the various versions of Barnett's testimony. This has been gone over by many researchers with a fine tooth comb anmd seems unlikely to reveal any conclusive resolution. Some of Barnett's assertions can be shown to be in error, principally that relating to Kelly's alleged marriage. Barnett stated specifically that Kelly was her maiden name and that she was legally married. He claims that her husband was named Davis or Davies. However, in other versions he opted for the version Davies and in at least one source he said he did not know the husband's name.
We must also not forget that Barnettt claimed that the name of the woman he lived with was NOT Mary Jane Kelly. He asserted that the real version of her forenames was Marie Jeanette, and it is this form of her name that appeared on both her death certificate and the dedicatory plate on her coffin.
However, searches for a marriage under the name Marie Jeanette Kelly have proved equally fruitless.
One major problem for any researcher is the lack of a provable timeline. Kelly is described at the time of her death as about 25 years of age. This receives some corroboration in that a former landlady of Kelly said she had taken her as a lodger three years prior to the murder at which time she was allegedly 22 years of age. The only firm indication of her age at the time of any event is Barnett's claim that she married at the age of 16. This would give some tentative dates of 1863 for her birth, 1879 for her marriage, and approximately 1881 or 1882 for the death of her husband. She supposedly lived as a married woman for approximately 2 to 3 years and, at some stage after her hsuband's death, moved to Cardiff and then, in about 1884, came to London.
Personally I think that if any progress were to be made, which I have to say I think unlikely, it would be by way of some of the minor and comparatively little researched aspects of Kelly's story. One example of this would be the story that Kelly had one sister who went from market to market selling and that this sister lived with Kelly's aunt.
I have to agree with Jukka in that I think the crux of the problem in tracing Kelly lies in the fact that she very probably used an assumed name. How much of the Barnett story is true we simply cannot know as we do not have the crucial element against which to test any possible identification - i.e. Kelly's real name.

[perrymason]

The main source for alleged information about Kelly and her background are the various versions of Barnett's testimony. This has been gone over by many researchers with a fine tooth comb anmd seems unlikely to reveal any conclusive resolution. Some of Barnett's assertions can be shown to be in error, principally that relating to Kelly's alleged marriage. Barnett stated specifically that Kelly was her maiden name and that she was legally married. He claims that her husband was named Davis or Davies. However, in other versions he opted for the version Davies and in at least one source he said he did not know the husband's name.
We must also not forget that Barnettt claimed that the name of the woman he lived with was NOT Mary Jane Kelly. He asserted that the real version of her forenames was Marie Jeanette, and it is this form of her name that appeared on both her death certificate and the dedicatory plate on her coffin.
However, searches for a marriage under the name Marie Jeanette Kelly have proved equally fruitless.
One major problem for any researcher is the lack of a provable timeline. Kelly is described at the time of her death as about 25 years of age. This receives some corroboration in that a former landlady of Kelly said she had taken her as a lodger three years prior to the murder at which time she was allegedly 22 years of age. The only firm indication of her age at the time of any event is Barnett's claim that she married at the age of 16. This would give some tentative dates of 1863 for her birth, 1879 for her marriage, and approximately 1881 or 1882 for the death of her husband. She supposedly lived as a married woman for approximately 2 to 3 years and, at some stage after her hsuband's death, moved to Cardiff and then, in about 1884, came to London.
Personally I think that if any progress were to be made, which I have to say I think unlikely, it would be by way of some of the minor and comparatively little researched aspects of Kelly's story. One example of this would be the story that Kelly had one sister who went from market to market selling and that this sister lived with Kelly's aunt.
I have to agree with Jukka in that I think the crux of the problem in tracing Kelly lies in the fact that she very probably used an assumed name. How much of the Barnett story is true we simply cannot know as we do not have the crucial element against which to test any possible identification - i.e. Kelly's real name.

Hi Chris,

My suspicion is that the name Marie Jeanette was created during the brothel period, or as she returned from France, after her alledged sojourn as a....what shall we say, courtesan, travelling companion, ....

It seems as if Mary tried to maintain a slight edge of sophistication, perhaps enjoying her nomme de plume and its fancy sound. I say that because in a ghetto where most everyone is likely wearing dirty clothing most of the time, Dew commented that Mary always had a clean white apron on, and wore her luxurious hair out....likely meaning it was washed regularly.

Best regards Chris.

[Chris Scott]

Hi Michael
There seems to be some evidence that Kelly was in some ways a cut above her peers. I think one neglected statement about Kelly is that of the unnamed City missionary which has some interesting observations:
"There is no doubt," said a City missionary, "that the impression has been very profound among these unhappy women. We have had special meetings for them, and at the very outset of our efforts we got 34 of them away to homes, and we have had a good many others since. I knew the poor girl who has just been killed, and to look at, at all events, she was one of the smartest, nicest looking women in the neighbourhood. We have had her at some of our meetings, and a companion of hers was one we rescued. I know that she has been in correspondence with her mother, It is not true, as it has been stated, that she is a Welshwoman. She is of Irish parentage, and her mother, I believe, lives in Limerick. I used to hear a good deal about the letters from her mother there. You would not have supposed if you had met her in the street that she belonged to the miserable class she did, as she was always neatly and decently dressed, and looked quite nice and respectable."

[perrymason]

Hi again Chris,

Yes, that is an interesting piece. I think there is some sense of self worth and stability that is conveyed by those kinds of remarks about Ms X, perhaps not unlike some of the other women when they were of her age, like Annie for example.

One wonders how white the aprons might have been if cared for by a 46 year old Mary, with 20 more years of desperate living under her belt.

Cheers Chris.

[Tomtit]

Perhaps, Perrry Mason, as a fellow Canuck, is aware of the similar search for the identity of the Mad Trapper of Rat River. He is often called Albert Johnson although that is a known alias, an identity he assumed of someone else who was expected in the area. Researchers still use that name as if it was a real clue to his identity. No one uses his other probable alias or real name, Arthur Nelson.
I believe the Mad Trapper and "Arthur Nelson" are one and the same and wondered if this alias wasn't the real clue. Why would someone change their name to Arthur? Was he Arthurian?
A search of the 1911 Canadian Census turns up one Arthur Nelson who immigrated from the States. He was born in 1907 so would have been about 25 when he died. Most witnesses say the Mad Trapper was in his thirties. His peak physical condition suggests to me he might be closer to 25.
Many people think they are related to the Mad Trapper and have sent in DNA samples to Myth Merchant Films, the company that exhumed the body in the summer of '07 and are working on a documentary. The show was supposed to air this year but must have been delayed pending identification which is taking a long time.

[perrymason]

Perhaps, Perrry Mason, as a fellow Canuck, is aware of the similar search for the identity of the Mad Trapper of Rat River. He is often called Albert Johnson although that is a known alias, an identity he assumed of someone else who was expected in the area. Researchers still use that name as if it was a real clue to his identity. No one uses his other probable alias or real name, Arthur Nelson.
I believe the Mad Trapper and "Arthur Nelson" are one and the same and wondered if this alias wasn't the real clue. Why would someone change their name to Arthur? Was he Arthurian?
A search of the 1911 Canadian Census turns up one Arthur Nelson who immigrated from the States. He was born in 1907 so would have been about 25 when he died. Most witnesses say the Mad Trapper was in his thirties. His peak physical condition suggests to me he might be closer to 25.
Many people think they are related to the Mad Trapper and have sent in DNA samples to Myth Merchant Films, the company that exhumed the body in the summer of '07 and are working on a documentary. The show was supposed to air this year but must have been delayed pending identification which is taking a long time.

Hi Tomtit,

Nice to have another fellow CDN here....the more the better I say.

Thats an interesting story, and Im glad you posted it, but you should know that as far as serial or any kind of killers go, these are the only cases Ive studied. My usual interest is Historical Warfare....go figure.

Cheers TT

[Tomtit]

My usual interest is Historical Warfare....go figure.
Cheers TT

Military history is my major interest lately too. The Mad Trapper was spotted by air by "Wop" May who was in on the final battle with the Red Baron. (Didn't make the list of CBC's 100 great Canadians though. Go figure.)
I mentioned the one American-born, Arthur Nelson in B.C. (Comox) from the 1911 census, just to cover the bases. Researchers may have missed a possible obvious candidate like this one in the census for any number of reasons, including confusion about age or real name or which alias to use as a clue.
Too bad a production company like Myth Merchant hasn't put its resources behind a Mary Kelly project, not that they've been successful so far.
Alot of people were wrong about being related to the Trapper. At least one mother misidentified the death photo as their long-lost son. Relying on a relative to make the I.D. might not be productive since it hasn't produced in the Trapper's case for over a year with huge publicity.

[Blackkat]

Under the rumor that MjK was a higher class "prostitute" at one time and went to France Etc Etc. There was suppose to have been a painting? Rumor. I found this.

THE COURTESAN
In an age when no one is easily shocked by exposed flesh or nudity it is difficult to see what was so extraordinary about many of the nude portraits that were painted during the eighteen-hundreds. Even though they were usually painted of courtesans or prostitutes (the only people who would pose nude) it is still hard to decipher exactly why every unveiled painting of a nude woman caused such an uproar. One reason was that although prostitution was certainly widespread and was utilized by the majority of men at the time it was not something that was openly discussed. It was something that was avoided. The police turned a blind eye to the wealthier courtesans and lorettes. Common prostitutes were seen in the open and were kept under very close surveillance by authoritative figures while the higher classes of prostitutes were allowed to do as they pleased. It was shocking to see courtesans portrayed in art galleries because it was a revolutionary thing to openly publicize and acknowledge this side of society.


THE LORETTE
Rather than being the well provided for mistress of an aristocrat or royal, the lorette's lover was usually an upper class bourgeoisie or lower level aristocrat. Though she was kept in well-appointed apartments and wore fine clothing, her social standing was far from desirable. "No honourable man, of course, would introduce her to his family, and it was a moot point whether he could even indulge in a discreet salute on the street, if accompanied by woman relatives." (Green)

The lorette's life was essentially divided, spending time privately with her lovers, even publicly in some cases, but completely distinct from his family and proper upper class society. She belonged in one sense, yet did not belong in so many others. "Taken up by wealthy or aspiring metropolitans - from speculators and entrepreneurs to state officials and aristocrats - and pulled into the cultural rituals of the modern city, she was simultaneously cut off from her own, usually lower-class, roots and millieu." (Green)

The lorette was bound in many ways by the codes of polite society and yet, was not embraced as a part of that same society. "On the boulevards, she was virtually indistinguishable in costume and appearance from the more fashionable among her lover's female relations. And in a sense, for men she was quintessentially public property - to be discussed, admired, acquired... In other words there was a radical mismatch between the social and moral codes marking out the lorette within 'respectable' society and the way she gained public representation in the spectacle of the metropolis." (Green) The lorette was essentially a decoration for her lovers, something to be admired and used as needed, but not something for everyday inclusion into society.

[Blackkat]

In France registering as a prostitute was a relatively simple process. According to Parent-Duchatelet, the prostitutes underwent an interrogation by the Bureau of Information and the inspectors. The registration would begin with plain biographical facts (name, age, place of birth, etc.) The prostitutes were then asked the following questions:

*If she is married, widowed or celibate?

* If her mother and father are living and what they do {for a living}?

*If she lives with them, how long has she been separated from them, and for what reasons did she leave them?

*If she has children, and if she has kept them?

* How long she has lived in Paris?

*If someone could have taken her to Paris? (Who accompanied her?)

* If she was arrested, how many times was she, and for what reasons?

* If she already practiced as a prostitute somewhere, and how long she has done this?

*If she currently has or already had one or several venereal diseases?

* If she received some form of education?

*For what reasons was she registering?