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  • Mary Jane Kelly in Newport Monmouthshire?

    It seems to me that we've always accepted Kelly's account of herself perhaps a little too happily. Supposing she lied about her age/looked younger than she was. A 25-year-old woman is fresher on the market than a 34-year-old woman. So I went looking at the facts of her life--as she told them--to see what would happen if we moved the dates a little.

    She says she married at 16 years of age to a miner called Davies.

    If she was, say 25+/- in 1888, then she was born in 1863 and married in 1879+/-. But suppose she was shaving off a few years? Say 5 years+/-. So I went looking a little further back. In September of 1873, Mary Jane Kelly gets married in Newport Monmouthshire. In September 1873, John Davies gets married in Newport Monmouthshire. I can't find a Welsh-born Mary Jane Kelly in 1857, but there is one in 1858, born in Swansea. She was legally old enough to marry then, as the age for women was 12 until 1929, when it became 16. So this could be the MJK I'm chasing and maybe she lived to a ripe old age. But Swansea is a long, long way from Newport, and I'd be surprised if it was her marrying there.

    There are a few John Davies of more-or-less the right age, although perhaps a little old for Kelly as they were in their 30s, dying at around this time. Three in 1874. But the one that attracts my attention is the death of John Davies aged 27 in Bedwelty, which is not very far from Newport. He died in December 1874. And Bedwellty is in the heart of the Welsh mining country. As well, Bedwellty Pits had three major accidents, where 5 or more men died, in the course of 16 years between 1865 and 1880. So that's only the bigtime disasters. I have checked as far as I can, and there are a lot of young men dying in Bedwellty over the course of that time and I'll bet almost all of them died in mining accidents or as the result of accidents. The mines would have been where the huge majority of them worked, and those mines sound dangerous as hell. I'll bet John Davies of Bedwellty died down the mine.

    I wonder if it's possible that this is Kelly and her long-lost young love...

  • #2
    For anyone doing research along these lines Im attaching the initial list I used when writing the Kelly book
    This is a list of all marriages featuring a person named Mary Jane Kelly from the time BMD records began to the time of the muder
    If anyone wants the name of possible marriage partner for any particular marriage let me know
    Happy hunting!
    Chris S

    Mary Jane Kelly 1843 Liverpool (1837-1934) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1845 Axminster Devon, Dorset
    Mary Jane Kelly 1851 Liverpool (1837-1934) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1853 St Thomas Devon
    Mary Jane Kelly 1853 Barton Upon Irwell (1850-1934) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1857 Hull (1854 Onw) Yorkshire - East Riding, Humberside
    Mary Jane Kelly 1857 Liverpool (1837-1934) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1858 Ashton Under Lyne Cheshire, Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1860 Manchester (1837-1924) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1860 Scilly Islands Cornwall
    Mary Jane Kelly 1860 Scilly Islands Cornwall
    Mary Jane Kelly 1861 Poole (To 1958) Dorset
    Mary Jane Kelly 1861 Truro Cornwall
    Mary Jane Kelly 1862 Carlisle Cumbria, Cumberland
    Mary Jane Kelly 1863 West Derby Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1864 Plymouth Devon
    Mary Jane Kelly 1864 Liverpool (1837-1934) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1864 Penzance Cornwall
    Mary Jane Kelly 1865 Haslingden Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1865 Newcastle Upon Tyne Northumberland, Tyne and Wear
    Mary Jane Kelly 1867 Liverpool (1837-1934) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1868 Shrewsbury (1837-71) Shropshire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1869 West Derby Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1871 Manchester (1837-1924) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1871 Manchester (1837-1924) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1871 West Derby Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1872 Liverpool (1837-1934) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1872 Liverpool (1837-1934) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1873 Newport M Glamorgan, Gwent, Monmouthshire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1874 Canterbury Kent
    Mary Jane Kelly 1875 Liverpool (1837-1934) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1875 Whitehaven Cumbria, Cumberland
    Mary Jane Kelly 1875 Manchester (1837-1924) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1875 Hardingstone Northamptonshire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1875 Manchester (1837-1924) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1876 Birkenhead (1861-1998) Cheshire, Merseyside
    Mary Jane Kelly 1876 Swansea Glamorgan, West Glamorgan
    Mary Jane Kelly 1876 West Derby Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1876 Pontefract Yorkshire - West Riding, West Yorkshire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1876 Liverpool (1837-1934) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1877 Manchester (1837-1924) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1877 Tynemouth Northumberland
    Mary Jane Kelly 1878 Isle of Wight Hampshire, Isle of Wight
    Mary Jane Kelly 1878 Wigan Greater Manchester, Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1878 East Stonehouse Devon
    Mary Jane Kelly 1878 Newton Abbot Devon
    Mary Jane Kelly 1878 Newton Abbot Devon
    Mary Jane Kelly 1878 Prescot Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1878 Hartlepool (1859-1938) Durham
    Mary Jane Kelly 1879 Chorlton Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1879 Sunderland Durham, Tyne and Wear
    Mary Jane Kelly 1879 Wigan Greater Manchester, Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1880 Neath (1837-1970) Breconshire, Glamorgan
    Mary Jane Kelly 1880 Plymouth Devon
    Mary Jane Kelly 1880 Torrington Devon
    Mary Jane Kelly 1880 Newport M Glamorgan, Gwent, Monmouthshire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1880 Oldham Greater Manchester, Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1881 Liverpool (1837-1934) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1881 Liverpool (1837-1934) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1881 Barrow in Furness (1876 Onw) Cumbria, Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1881 Halifax Yorkshire - West Riding, West Yorkshire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1882 Sheffield South Yorkshire, Yorkshire - West Riding
    Mary Jane Kelly 1882 Woolwich Greater London, Kent, London
    Mary Jane Kelly 1882 Barrow in Furness (1876 Onw) Cumbria, Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1883 Grantham (1837-1933) Leicestershire, Lincolnshire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1883 Grantham (1837-1933) Leicestershire, Lincolnshire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1883 Whitehaven Cumbria, Cumberland
    Mary Jane Kelly 1884 West Derby Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1884 Stepney (To 1921) London, Middlesex
    Mary Jane Kelly 1884 Aston (1837-1924) Warwickshire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1884 Liverpool (1837-1934) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1885 Tiverton Devon, Somerset
    Mary Jane Kelly 1885 West Derby Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1885 Pontypridd Glamorgan, Mid Glamorgan
    Mary Jane Kelly 1885 West Derby Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1885 Fulham Greater London, London, Middlesex
    Mary Jane Kelly 1885 Liverpool (1837-1934) Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1886 Ashton Under Lyne Cheshire, Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1886 Stockton Durham, Yorkshire - North Riding
    Mary Jane Kelly 1887 Gateshead Durham, Tyne and Wear
    Mary Jane Kelly 1887 Whitehaven Cumbria, Cumberland
    Mary Jane Kelly 1888 Tynemouth Northumberland
    Mary Jane Kelly 1888 West Derby Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1888 Toxteth Park Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1888 Whitehaven Cumbria, Cumberland
    Mary Jane Kelly 1888 Stockport Cheshire, Lancashire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1888 Whitehaven Cumbria, Cumberland
    Mary Jane Kelly 1888 Torrington Devon

    Of the above, the following took place in Wales

    Mary Jane Kelly 1873 Newport M Glamorgan, Gwent, Monmouthshire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1876 Swansea Glamorgan, West Glamorgan
    Mary Jane Kelly 1880 Neath (1837-1970) Breconshire, Glamorgan
    Mary Jane Kelly 1880 Newport M Glamorgan, Gwent, Monmouthshire
    Mary Jane Kelly 1885 Pontypridd Glamorgan, Mid Glamorgan

    Of these Welsh marriages, these are the potential spouse surnames:
    Mary Jane Kelly 1873 Newport M Glamorgan, Gwent, Monmouthshire
    Spouse: Hughes or Irwin
    Mary Jane Kelly 1876 Swansea Glamorgan, West Glamorgan
    Spouse: Morgan
    Mary Jane Kelly 1880 Neath (1837-1970) Breconshire, Glamorgan
    Spouse: Morgan or Williams
    Mary Jane Kelly 1880 Newport M Glamorgan, Gwent, Monmouthshire
    Spouse: Richards or Wilkes
    Mary Jane Kelly 1885 Pontypridd Glamorgan, Mid Glamorgan
    Spouse: Bessant or Rowlands
    Last edited by Chris Scott; 11-24-2008, 10:04 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      What I find interesting as I read one of the many issues from 'Ripper Notes: Suspects & Witnesses', a section by Des McKenna entitled, 'The Tale of the "Two's" ', brings up, near the end of his discussion of the live "show" by Tom Slemen and Keith Andrews, that there was apparently a photograph of Mary Kelly---assuming it to be the only one of her alive.

      How come this hasn't surfaced or come to anyone person's attention yet that I know of? It is more than likely pure rubbish, but seeing how it was apparently carried out on a stage with a microphone, and assuming that there must of been some sort of mechanism in which to enable the two men to illustrate their topic, is very, very interesting.

      Apparently she was a slim built, dark-haired woman with thick hair worn in a fringe style.

      Comment


      • #4
        My feelings are that there may be photos of MjK - but knowing that they are her is the problem. I don't think she was using her real name, and if that's the case she had something to hide, mainly her identity. No one (family) claimed the body - (might be because she wasn't using her real name LOL) The crime scene photos - won't help at ALL, you can't match that up to a photo that surfaces.

        I'm sure there are photos of her around - at least one or two but how do you prove that without any thing else to back it up. I did hear she had her portrait painted. Who knows.
        "Truth only reveals itself when one gives up all preconceived ideas. ~Shoseki

        When one has one's hand full of truth it is not always wise to open it. ~French Proverb

        Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized. In the first, it is ridiculed, in the second it is opposed, in the third it is regarded as self-evident. ~Arthur Schopenhauer

        Comment


        • #5
          Bedwellty/Cardiff connection

          I mentioned the following on a recent podcast, and posted it on the boards pre-crash. Apologies for repeating it here, but this is still worth reflecting on, I feel...

          1861 Census - Halket St (house number not given), Llandaf, Cardiff
          Daniel Kelly (Head), Married, 35, Marine Store Dealer, b. Ireland
          Mary (Wife), Married, 30, b. Ireland
          Elizabeth (Daur), Single, 8, Scholar, b. Ireland
          Margaret (Daur), Single, 7, Scholar, b. Ireland
          Mary (Daur), Single, 6, Scholar, b. Ireland
          Denis (Son), Single, 2, Scholar, b. Llandaf, Cardiff
          Julia (Daur), Single, 7m, b. Llandaf, Cardiff

          You'll note from the above that the head of the family is called Daniel and was a "Marine Store Dealer". Perhaps Kelly was romancing to hide a less-than-auspicious upbringing – this is particularly interesting when one considers that a “Marine Store Dealer” was an occupation associated with “travellers” in the Late Victorian Period. From Barnett's Inquest testimony, we hear that “[Kelly] said she had one sister, who was respectable, who travelled from market place to market place”.

          Halket St was a run-down area of the Canton district of Llandaf where huge numbers of immigrant Irish families settled from the mid-19th Century onwards. Interestingly, there was a family called either "Carthy" or "M'Carthy" living a few doors away from the Kellys in Halket St, Cardiff in the 1861 Census, although this is probably little more than a coincidence.

          A photograph of Halket Street, Cardiff taken in 1892:

          Click image for larger version

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          A family split by 1871
          By 1871 the family seems to have hit hard times. It appears that the mother had died and father and children were split up:

          1871 Census - Cardiff Union School
          Mary Kelly, Inmate, 13, b. Liverpool
          Julia Kelly, Inmate, 11, b. Llandaf, Cardiff
          Bridget Kelly, Inmate, 8, b. Llandaf, Cardiff
          Ann Kelly, Inmate, 6, b. Llandaf, Cardiff

          The Union School was an establishment for paupers, for unruly children or for children of “unfit” parents. Built in 1861, an infectious disease isolation unit was later opened on the same site. It closed in 1903 and was “re-purposed” as Ely Lodge, intended to provide workhouse accommodation for adults, although it was never used to that end. The building still stands, and was featured in Griff Rhys-Jones' appearance on the BBC show “Who do you think you are?”. In that programme, it was revealed to Rhys-Jones that, after his great great grandfather's imprisonment for murder, his great grandmother was “taken in” by a Union School similar to the one in Cardiff, as her mother couldn't cope and/or was of dubious character herself.

          Griff Rhys-Jones said in a newspaper interview: “I thought, poor woman, she probably died and her children were sent to orphanages. But they weren't orphanages. They were approved schools for children running around uncontrollably and refusing to go to school. For one reason or another she was a very bad and unsuitable parent and didn't manage to cope at all.” (The Mail on Sunday, 2nd September 2007.)

          Note also that Mary's place of birth appears as "Liverpool", rather than "Ireland" as in the previous census. Perhaps the Census taker made an incorrect entry, or perhaps we really should be looking for an MJK who was born in Lancashire to a Daniel and Mary Kelly between 1855 and 1860?

          I'm assuming that this is the same Mary Kelly owing to the recurrence of the names Mary, Julia and Bridget (see later) and their rough ages. I cannot find this combination of names anywhere else in the 1871 Wales Census that would account for their absence from the widower Dan Kelly's family, shown "Mary and Julia-less" in the same Census year:

          1871 Census - 42, George St, Bedwellty
          Dan Kelly (Boarder), Widower, 46, Dealer in Wares, b. Ireland
          Denis Kelly (Boy), Single, 11, Labourer, b. Cardiff
          Elizabeth Kelly (Boarder), Single, 18, Sempstress , b. Cardiff

          Reunion - but no Mary
          By 1881 the family seem to have reunited in Halket St, only now they seem to have been joined by some relatives from Ireland, occupying the house next door. It seems very probable that this is the same Kelly clan, as Daniel and (his brother?) John both have the same exotic occupation. It looks like the matriarch, Elizabeth, has also uprooted and moved to Wales.

          1881 Census - 38 Halket St, Llandaf, Cardiff
          John Kelly (Head), Married, 45, Marine Store Dealer, b. Ireland
          Mary (Wife), Married, 45, b. Ireland
          Denis (Son), Single, 19, Labourer, b. Cardiff
          John (Son), Single, 12, Scholar, b. Cardiff
          Daniel (Son), Single, 11, Scholar, b. Cardiff

          1881 Census - 39 Halket St, Llandaf, Cardiff
          Elizabeth Kelly (Head), Widow, 84, Pauper , b. Cork, Ireland
          Daniel Kelly (Son), Widower, 55, Marine Store Dealer, b. Cork, Ireland
          Julia (Granddaughter), Single, 20, Marine Store Dealer, b. Cardiff
          Bridget (Granddaughter), Single, 17, Domestic Servant, b. Cardiff

          So, the same group of children's names crop up again, albeit split between the two households and with the addition of probably the same Bridget we saw at the poor school in 1871. The ages are close enough (allowing for "Census error") to suggest that we have the same family. However, you may note that we're missing Margaret, Elizabeth and - interestingly - Mary seems to have moved on as well. It's also interesting to note that we seem to have brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts and grandparents all mixed up, and living in adjacent houses. Recall again from Barnett's testimony that “After her husband's death deceased went to Cardiff to a cousin”.

          What became of Denis
          I have discovered what happened to Denis Kelly, son of Daniel and, depending on which Census entry you believe, brother of Mary, who appears in the next Census. Given that he was apparently a jobbing labourer in 1881, and joined the army sometime thereafter, it'd be fascinating to know what caused his breakdown in the 10 years between then and this census entry:

          1891 Census - Glamorgan District Asylum
          Denis Kelly, Single, 28, Soldier (Lunatic) , b. Cardiff
          Last edited by Sam Flynn; 11-25-2008, 01:56 AM. Reason: formatting
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

          Comment


          • #6
            John Davies died along with 22 others in a disaster at the Tredegar Pit Bedwellty 4 December 1875. He is listed as a 'young boy' so not married. But he was 27 years old when he died, so I wonder if the clerk of the pit made a mistake there. I've no idea if he had anything to do with Kelly, but certainly a John Davies and a Mary Jane Kelly got married in the same quarter in the same locality not too far from the Tredegar Pit. And Kelly maintained she was married '2 or 3 years' to this man. Kelly and Davies got married in the summer, as both entries are in September of 1873. Davies died in December 1975. So if it was Kelly, and Davies was her husband, they would have been married roughly 2 and a half years when he died.

            Oh, and by the way, according to Barnett, Kelly maintained her husband had died in 'an explosion'. Herewith an account of the disaster at the Tredegar Pit:

            On the 2nd of December 1875 a minor gas explosion occurred near to the coalface badly injuring two men. Subsequently the mine workings were inspected and found to be free of gas. However the manager decided as a precaution that no men should enter the pit for at least twenty-four hours. For some unknown reason his orders were disregarded and the next morning under the instructions of the overman William Evans the men descended the pit as usual. At 8am another explosion occurred and twenty men were killed instantaneously and another two died later from their injuries.
            Last edited by Chava; 11-25-2008, 04:08 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              This is fascinating and thorough research. As a by-the-by, the confusion between Liverpool and Ireland may well, of course, be entirely explained by Liverpool's being the first stop-off point for many Irish migrants--and if Kelly's birth was around that time, may well be that dad's reporting to the Union school, or the school's own records, may have been a little faulty. The journey down to Wales was one that my own mother's family made--and from the size of the Irish community in S. Wales, seems like it was a common one.

              I do tend to think that most tales tend to have a kernel of truth in them, and Chava's suggestion sounds plausible. But what happened to the ten years between JD's death and MJK's arrival in London?

              And then I think, sheesh, looking for a Welshman called John Davies and an Irishwoman called Mary Jane Kelly; this has to be someone's idea of a joke (bit like going into a Welsh pub and shouting out, 'Dai!' How many heads turn?)...
              best,

              claire

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi Chava

                Weren't your Kelly and Davies listed on different pages?

                Comment


                • #9
                  In the third quarter of 1873 in Newport, Mary Jane Kelly married a man named Hughes or Irwin
                  In that same place and quarter three marriages occurred of a man named John Davies. The spouses of these three men are as follows:
                  1) Anne Lewis or Emily Rowlands
                  2) Elizabeth Horroll or Alice John
                  3) Harriet Parker or Mary Ann Waters

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Weren't your Kelly and Davies listed on different pages?
                    Yes, they were. But the listings are alphabetical from what I can see, so they would be. I don't think you'd really find out who John Davies married, or who Mary Jane Kelly married unless you went to the local records office and checked the marriage certificate.

                    I'm not saying 'Look!! I've found her!!'. In fact it's a better than even chance that 'Mary Jane Kelly' wasn't even her real name. But both Kelly and Davies married in the same time frame and in the same area. They were married for the right amount of time. And a John Davies was a miner and died in an explosion down a pit. If there are any archivists around to check on this at the source we may be able to rule out this completely. I've long thought she probably lied about her age, so if this is her, she was 16 in 1873 and 31 when she died. It's not a huge discrepancy. As to what she did from 1876 to 1885, could have been anything. She could have gone into domestic service, found out it was too much like hard work and gone on the game. She could have been recruited by a high-class bordel in the West End to go to France with favoured clients (yeah, right!). I think, given what we know of her in her last couple of years, that she may have found men to glom onto and live with, she hung out on the fringes of prostitution, and went on the stroll to pick a few bob when she was broke and had no one to sponge off. She certainly doesn't sound like the kind of full-time prostitute that Mary Ann cox certainly was. Look at the difference in their behaviour that last night. Cox is out (picking up tricks, I'm sure). Goes home to warm up and possibly attend to the call of nature in private. Goes right out again when she's done. Stays out. And comes home exhausted at around 3.00 am. It certainly doesn't sound as if she's drunk too much. On the other hand, Kelly comes back hammered at 11.45 pm. Wastes time singing sentimental songs at the trick. And then...possibly goes out, still half-cut; possibly stays in and falls asleep; possibly...? I'll bet Cox would see to it she didn't get so drunk she couldn't handle a nasty customer. Kelly obviously doesn't care about stuff like that.


                    And, no, I don't think Cox could have taken care of herself against someone like the Ripper. But I'll bet she could handle herself in ordinary circumstances. I imagine most prostitutes take a reasonable amount of care. But Kelly didn't.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks Chris! I knew I could rely on you!

                      Shame, though. This one did sound like a possible candidate.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        This may be of some interest:

                        "In fact during this whole five year period (1877-1881) I have so far only found one record anywhere of a Mary Kelly marrying a man named Davis or Davies. This took place in Shoreditch in the first quarter of 1881 and involved a Mary Ann Kelly and a John Brook Davis. Fuller details of this marriage are given below.
                        The 1881 marriage is the wedding between Mary Ann Kelly and John Brook Davis registered in Shoreditch in the first quarter of that year. As this is the only marriage so far found between a Mary Kelly and a partner named Davis, it is important to follow this up and see if anything further can be found. There is only one census entry specifically under the named of John Brook Davis which occurs in the 1871 records. He is listed as a 19 year old unmarried boarder at 59 Township, Worcester and his occupation is listed as a chemist's assistant. Interestingly, he is listed as Welsh born, specifically as coming from Rhyl, Flintshire. He lodged with his employer, a chemist named Edwin Timms, aged 42. There is also another record of a marriage in Islington in 1883 between a John Brook Davis and either Eliza Faulkner or Charlotte King. However, it would appear that the Worcester, Welsh born John Davis is unrelated to the couple who married in Shoreditch in 1881. What I believe is their household record is listed in the 1881 census as follows:
                        Address: 33 Fanshaw Street, London
                        Head: John B Davis aged 23 born Shoreditch - Picture frame maker
                        Wife: Mary A Davis aged 18 born Bethnal Green - Boot machinist."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by AuroraSarintacos View Post
                          .....
                          Apparently she was a slim built, dark-haired woman with thick hair worn in a fringe style.
                          Most descriptions seem to give her as a relatively tall woman for the period (5'7" acc to the doctor attending the crime scene), well built or plump, and 'as fair as a lily' with waist length hair of which she was very proud. Most women wore their hair up in those days I think. all those describing her say she was attractive.

                          The description you give seems to come from the Police Illustrated sketch iirc, which makes her look like a thug who has padded her cheeks with cotton wool!

                          Given her habit of allowing other girls to use her room, and the fact that two people claim to have seen her the following morning, and her stated wish to go off and start a new life in Ireland, I'm by no means 100% convinced that it was Kelly lying on that bed.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                            I mentioned the following on a recent podcast, and posted it on the boards pre-crash. Apologies for repeating it here, but this is still worth reflecting on, I feel...

                            1861 Census - Halket St (house number not given), Llandaf, Cardiff
                            Daniel Kelly (Head), Married, 35, Marine Store Dealer, b. Ireland
                            Mary (Wife), Married, 30, b. Ireland
                            Elizabeth (Daur), Single, 8, Scholar, b. Ireland
                            Margaret (Daur), Single, 7, Scholar, b. Ireland
                            Mary (Daur), Single, 6, Scholar, b. Ireland
                            Denis (Son), Single, 2, Scholar, b. Llandaf, Cardiff
                            Julia (Daur), Single, 7m, b. Llandaf, Cardiff

                            You'll note from the above that the head of the family is called Daniel and was a "Marine Store Dealer". Perhaps Kelly was romancing to hide a less-than-auspicious upbringing – this is particularly interesting when one considers that a “Marine Store Dealer” was an occupation associated with “travellers” in the Late Victorian Period. From Barnett's Inquest testimony, we hear that “[Kelly] said she had one sister, who was respectable, who travelled from market place to market place”.

                            Halket St was a run-down area of the Canton district of Llandaf where huge numbers of immigrant Irish families settled from the mid-19th Century onwards. Interestingly, there was a family called either "Carthy" or "M'Carthy" living a few doors away from the Kellys in Halket St, Cardiff in the 1861 Census, although this is probably little more than a coincidence.

                            A photograph of Halket Street, Cardiff taken in 1892:

                            [ATTACH]3850[/ATTACH]

                            A family split by 1871
                            By 1871 the family seems to have hit hard times. It appears that the mother had died and father and children were split up:

                            1871 Census - Cardiff Union School
                            Mary Kelly, Inmate, 13, b. Liverpool
                            Julia Kelly, Inmate, 11, b. Llandaf, Cardiff
                            Bridget Kelly, Inmate, 8, b. Llandaf, Cardiff
                            Ann Kelly, Inmate, 6, b. Llandaf, Cardiff

                            The Union School was an establishment for paupers, for unruly children or for children of “unfit” parents. Built in 1861, an infectious disease isolation unit was later opened on the same site. It closed in 1903 and was “re-purposed” as Ely Lodge, intended to provide workhouse accommodation for adults, although it was never used to that end. The building still stands, and was featured in Griff Rhys-Jones' appearance on the BBC show “Who do you think you are?”. In that programme, it was revealed to Rhys-Jones that, after his great great grandfather's imprisonment for murder, his great grandmother was “taken in” by a Union School similar to the one in Cardiff, as her mother couldn't cope and/or was of dubious character herself.

                            Griff Rhys-Jones said in a newspaper interview: “I thought, poor woman, she probably died and her children were sent to orphanages. But they weren't orphanages. They were approved schools for children running around uncontrollably and refusing to go to school. For one reason or another she was a very bad and unsuitable parent and didn't manage to cope at all.” (The Mail on Sunday, 2nd September 2007.)

                            Note also that Mary's place of birth appears as "Liverpool", rather than "Ireland" as in the previous census. Perhaps the Census taker made an incorrect entry, or perhaps we really should be looking for an MJK who was born in Lancashire to a Daniel and Mary Kelly between 1855 and 1860?

                            I'm assuming that this is the same Mary Kelly owing to the recurrence of the names Mary, Julia and Bridget (see later) and their rough ages. I cannot find this combination of names anywhere else in the 1871 Wales Census that would account for their absence from the widower Dan Kelly's family, shown "Mary and Julia-less" in the same Census year:

                            1871 Census - 42, George St, Bedwellty
                            Dan Kelly (Boarder), Widower, 46, Dealer in Wares, b. Ireland
                            Denis Kelly (Boy), Single, 11, Labourer, b. Cardiff
                            Elizabeth Kelly (Boarder), Single, 18, Sempstress , b. Cardiff

                            Reunion - but no Mary
                            By 1881 the family seem to have reunited in Halket St, only now they seem to have been joined by some relatives from Ireland, occupying the house next door. It seems very probable that this is the same Kelly clan, as Daniel and (his brother?) John both have the same exotic occupation. It looks like the matriarch, Elizabeth, has also uprooted and moved to Wales.

                            1881 Census - 38 Halket St, Llandaf, Cardiff
                            John Kelly (Head), Married, 45, Marine Store Dealer, b. Ireland
                            Mary (Wife), Married, 45, b. Ireland
                            Denis (Son), Single, 19, Labourer, b. Cardiff
                            John (Son), Single, 12, Scholar, b. Cardiff
                            Daniel (Son), Single, 11, Scholar, b. Cardiff

                            1881 Census - 39 Halket St, Llandaf, Cardiff
                            Elizabeth Kelly (Head), Widow, 84, Pauper , b. Cork, Ireland
                            Daniel Kelly (Son), Widower, 55, Marine Store Dealer, b. Cork, Ireland
                            Julia (Granddaughter), Single, 20, Marine Store Dealer, b. Cardiff
                            Bridget (Granddaughter), Single, 17, Domestic Servant, b. Cardiff

                            So, the same group of children's names crop up again, albeit split between the two households and with the addition of probably the same Bridget we saw at the poor school in 1871. The ages are close enough (allowing for "Census error") to suggest that we have the same family. However, you may note that we're missing Margaret, Elizabeth and - interestingly - Mary seems to have moved on as well. It's also interesting to note that we seem to have brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts and grandparents all mixed up, and living in adjacent houses. Recall again from Barnett's testimony that “After her husband's death deceased went to Cardiff to a cousin”.

                            What became of Denis
                            I have discovered what happened to Denis Kelly, son of Daniel and, depending on which Census entry you believe, brother of Mary, who appears in the next Census. Given that he was apparently a jobbing labourer in 1881, and joined the army sometime thereafter, it'd be fascinating to know what caused his breakdown in the 10 years between then and this census entry:

                            1891 Census - Glamorgan District Asylum
                            Denis Kelly, Single, 28, Soldier (Lunatic) , b. Cardiff
                            I saw you linking to this thread from another one, Gareth and thought this might be a useful addition to your research:

                            Here are some brief notes I made from the pension records of Denis Kelly. The medical notes show his dementia (originally recorded as 'mania' but crossed through and replaced with 'dementia') in 1887 and at times he was violent.

                            Joined South Wales Borderers on 26th Jan 1883
                            age 20
                            height 5 ft 4 quarter inches
                            weight 11 stone
                            complexion fresh, eyes blue, hair light brown.
                            Religion Roman Catholic
                            deserted at Kilkenny Dec 1883
                            rejoined and confined Dec 84-service forfeited after prosecution in 85
                            Imprisonment Jan 85 to Mar 85
                            In confinement Apr 85 (4 days)
                            In India 15 Dec 87 for 2 years 3 mos.
                            In India 18 Dec 87 to 1 May 88

                            Next of Kin father John Kelly 38 Halket St
                            Canton Cardiff

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                            • #15
                              Looking at the 1881 census, Halket St seems a real Irish enclave. Go back a few pages and into the next street (Wyndham?) and you're back in Wales. Interestingly there were a John and Mary J Davies living there, aged 23 and 20 respectively. His place of birth Merthyr Tydfil, hers intriguingly blank.

                              MrB
                              Last edited by MrBarnett; 07-08-2014, 08:37 AM.

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