Millers Court - the demolition picture

[The Grave Maurice]

Brenda,

The wide photo is available in the Casebook's archive:

http://photos.casebook.org/displayimage.php?album=6&pos=13

[Chris Scott]

Extending the pic a little may be useful
1 to 3 - the three houses on the right hand side of Millers Court
4 - the wall at the end of Millers Court
26 - the back of 26 Dorset Street
27 - the back of 27 Dorset Street

Compare this with part of the Goads Map of Millers Court

[Sam Flynn]

Useful labels, Chris - thanks.

Before anyone jumps in, it's worth noting that Chris's numbering system doesn't refer to the house-numbers in Miller's Court itself!

[Celesta]

The actual full-sized image of the demolition is dated but I don't have access to it at the moment. I think it is sometime in April. Jake will be your man for that one. The famous pair of photos by Leonard Matters were taken, I think, in late January of that year just before they came down. This would explain, for example, the fact that the first floor (in the English sense) windows of #27 have been taken out in the Matters shots.


I'm looking at the picture of the front of the two buildings, #26 and #27, that Leonard Matters took in June 1928, according to the caption. The windows are already gone, at least in part on the upper floors, except for the two on the far right in #27. What prevented him from going into the passage? Was it already blocked or cut off from the public by this time? I'm just wondering why he didn't get closer and get the passage. Excuse my ignorance on this. Just doing a bit of wishful thinking here.

[Rob Clack]

Hi Celesta,

This is what Matters wrote in his book:





Whether he took any more photos we don't know, hopefully he did and they are out there somewhere.

Rob

[Celesta]

Hi Rob,

I deeply appreciate this. I've been keeping an eye out for Matters' book. I saw one a while back, but someone beat me to the punch, and I didn't get it. Now, I plan to find it no matter what. Every time I've looked at the photo of the front side of the houses, I've asked myself why didn't he go into the court itself?! This has been very helpful, Rob. Thanks.


Bestest,

Cel

[Chris Scott]

I've got this cleaned up version of Goad's map just of Millers Court which might be of use

[John Bennett]

I believe the demolition photo was dated June 1928 when it first appeared on the boards 2 years ago. I can't remember who first posted it. It was from the Hulton Picture library.

[perrymason]

Hi all,

So......no-ones going to mention that in the photographs and in the corresponding sketch there is clearly a window to Elizabeth Prater's room right above Marys larger window?

That means at least one witness that night in that courtyard is credible,... when she said that the cry came "as from the court", it would seem that she had good reasons for saying so.

Best regards all.

[Celesta]

Hello Michael,

Take a look at the East End Photographs, etc. thread, if you haven't already. The last two or three pages is about some "courts" that are very reminiscent of Miller's Ct. You really get a sense of how claustrophobic these places were.


Best,

Cel

[George Hutchinson]

Hi Michael. If you ever see an uncropped version of the November 9th shot of #13 from the outside, you'll see that Prater's window is clearly visible above the pair in Mary's room.

I am sure Jake had an exact date for the Brushfield Street demolition image. It COULD be June. April was just a month that was sticking in my mind. As for the famous shots of the Miller's Court entrance being from June as well, well I know I definitely was told some time in the past it was January but that is only received information. On one hand, you could ask why an old woman would be sitting on a chair outside in January and on the other hand you could ask why an old woman would be sitting outside derelict buildings three days before they're demolished!

PHILIP

[perrymason]

Hey Celesta,

Ive seen them and I concur. I have a couple of books on the LVP unrelated to the crimes, and a picture in one shows the courtyard lane almost single file width. Thats how we describe a narrow fairway in golf, (you might know that if you play?)...in case you wondered why the "single file" line.

With Millers Court you have the additional dreariness of having to walk through a dark and dank archway for 20-25 feet before even arriving at the "spacious" couryard. From the photos I wouldnt guess much more than 7-8 feet in height. Picture that, 25 of what Ill bet were very smelly feet, with slick wet walls...no light, save the gaslight outside the Keyler's and Julia's doors shining onto Marys doorstep.

I live in an old part of Toronto, the Toronto Beaches, the church opposite me is the oldest parish in the city....(for us old is 1840's )...and from where I live heading west towards the city centre are some streets and lanes that were built in those early days....running south towards the water. Conventional cars cannot use them. I think you can straddle the entire street if youre 5'10" or taller. Mostly three storied housing on either side.

They were likely mutilple family homes or houses at some point in their history, its still a depressed area. Know what you find in these ghetto type areas? Lots of churches.

Cheers Ms C, nice to chat witcha.

[Rob Clack]

Hi all,

So......no-ones going to mention that in the photographs and in the corresponding sketch there is clearly a window to Elizabeth Prater's room right above Marys larger window?

I don't think anybody ever said there wasn't.

Rob

[Esther Wilson]

Thanks so much to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I have never seen any of these photos or read the article that was posted. Very interesting and some new knowledge for me. Thanks again.

Esther

[perrymason]

Hi Esther, Rob, Philip....

Thanks for that dating guess Philip, nice to see you by the way. You too Rob....Ive never really had any question as to the window, for both you and Rob, but I do know sensible arguments have been made based on floor plans and statements that place her room in the front of the house over the shed....so......and I do know one very sensible and knowledgable fellow here who feels that we may not have all the data clear.

Heres why I am delighted to see it so clearly....I have a pet theory on "oh-murder". I believe it was Mary, and her door was open at the time, for Elizabeth to hear it "as from the court", and Sarah Lewis..."as if at the door".

I think that would effectively rule out an unknown man, to her at least,...as her likely killer if true. He may have been one of the bootsteps heard by Mary Ann until around 6am....heck, he may have killed her, left, and come back to wreak havoc for all we know.

Its always a great topic Esther, we all are trying to figure this one out....

Top of the evening to y'all.