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Millers Court - the demolition picture

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  • Further to my comment above: << It seems to me on balance that Prater occupied the room over the 'shed' ie she had the upstairs (first floor) room of the house, BUT THAT DID HAVE A WINDOW OVERLOOKING THE COURT above Room 12 - see purple pane here:
    http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1755 >>

    Looking at several photos properly LOL on the main East End Photos thread, it's clear of course that although the houses are only one room deep, excluding the lean-to of 12 & 13 Millers Court, they are FOUR stories tall.

    There is nothing incompatible in what was reported of Prater's evidence with her having the room above the shed, which looked out over *both* the court and the street - or rather the window of the stairway would look out over the court, and would face her doorway

    Sound from Mary's room would easily carry up the stairway and up from the Courtyard. I see nothing to argue over here! Remember that reporters were barred form the Court by police, so their reporting of the topography may well have been a little confused - and confusing

    The door into the shed is on the street, in the photos, and that in the covered part of the alley must have given access to the stairs, which would abut the short wall of number 13 furthest from the fireplace. Do we know eg from the survey of London when these houses were built? - it might give us a clue as to whether this room was once part of the main house, though on available evidence this stretch of buildings seems to have been built as tenements - ie one room dwellings

    PS re the Hulton demolition pic in my post above: I referred to glass negs - by 1928 the photographer would be using film of course; and there may well be more negs
    Last edited by Sara; 11-25-2008, 02:50 AM.

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    • Originally posted by Sara View Post
      Further to my comment above: << It seems to me on balance that Prater occupied the room over the 'shed' ie she had the upstairs (first floor) room of the house, BUT THAT DID HAVE A WINDOW OVERLOOKING THE COURT above Room 12 - see purple pane here:
      http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1755 >>
      The room with the purple pane is on the second floor, however.

      PS: Thanks for bringing us back to the topic of this thread, Sarah! (Namely, the demolition picture )
      The door into the shed is on the street, in the photos
      That's one way in. Access to the shed may have been possible via the side-door, too. I daresay that, before Kelly's room was partitioned off, one might have been able to access the front of the house from her door as well.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by perrymason View Post
        From the post that Chris made just a few pages ago, on the windows looking into the court...."I did not take much notice of the cries as I frequently hear such cries from the back of the lodging house where the windows look into Millers Court."

        There is no .."up the road", nor is there just one lodging house that looks into the court.....in case youve forgotten, 26 Dorset Street is a lodging house.
        Indeed, Mike - and I agree with your interpretation. I'm sure that when Prater talked about "lodging-house", she was talking about the house in which she herself lodged, viz., 26 Dorset Street - hence my point about her circuitous language a couple of days ago. "Outside my window", or "in the court" would have been the natural thing to say, if hers was indeed the room traditionally associated with her - instead, she uses the phrase "at the back of the lodging-house".
        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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        • One may quote various newspaper and inquest transcripts till the cows come home, but for the final time:

          "I live in number 20 Room, Miller's Court... above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below". Where did the Telegraph's correspondent get those very specific details from when he transcribed Prater's words at the inquest?
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
            One may quote various newspaper and inquest transcripts till the cows come home, but for the final time:

            "I live in number 20 Room, Miller's Court... above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below". Where did the Telegraph's correspondent get those very specific details from when he transcribed Prater's words at the inquest?
            Sam....if you were being honest with me and yourself, you would have said "despite the fact that my opinion is potentially substantiated with only one press clipping of the Inquest, and is diametrically opposed to the remaining 8 press clippings reviewed, of the same interview and person, I will use this one account as my platform and disregard all the 8 contrary ones. " Thats the truth Sam.

            You can post one account "till the cows come home" Sam, there is no way that addresses the 8 that say youre mistaken. Its not like you to make up your mind that you have the single authoratative report and claim that the 8 accounts that do not support your contention are valueless, so thats why I am so adamant about getting you to at least agree....you have taken the least repeated phrase and made it the most relevant.

            I have great respect for you Sam, but that doesnt allow me to accept your personal take that you have the "meaningful quote" and that the preponderance of the quotes suggest you are correct....because in fact, it is the exact opposite.

            If you had said..."I believe this one"...instead of pounding that single quote over and over thinking it will somehow make the 8 opposing statements go away, I would have just debated that. You are saying the single quote of 9 is actually the correct one....something that is statistically improbable, and completely subjective.

            A stance I feel is beneath you.

            Best regards.

            Comment


            • So Prater lives above and to the right? She'd go up the stairs to the first floor and then turn right to get into her room? So Kelly's room was below the corridor?

              I think the guys that built Millers Court weren't interested in building any unrenumerative space. Cram 'Em In would be their motto. What I expect is that Prater's room was mostly over the shed, but that at least a bit of it was over Kelly's room. It's unlikely that the rooms on the top floor echo exactly the rooms on the bottom floor. You'd need to stagger them slightly for the building to be stable.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by perrymason View Post
                A stance I feel is beneath you.
                I'll be the judge of that, Mike. Personally, I don't think it's "beneath" anyone to ponder seriously why/how the Telegraph's transcript of Prater's inquest testimony inserted those rather significant words, "above the shed". It's no good throwing up a sandstorm of sources we're all familiar with, when we have such a specific statement that could not - be honest, now - have been made up or mis-heard.

                The problem is that some people seem to want Elizabeth Prater to be a "spy in the sky" - or at least an "ear to the floor" - when it's rather clear to me that she probably wasn't anything of the sort.
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                Comment


                • Hello Sam,

                  Can you straighten me out on this shed? I thought I understood, but now I'm not sure anymore! Where was it supposed to be? I've been using the diagram in the back of James Tully's book. I thought the shed was tacked onto the building opposite # 13 and on the same side of the court. IE across from Mary's windows.

                  Thanks.

                  Cel
                  Last edited by Celesta; 11-25-2008, 04:06 AM.
                  "What our ancestors would really be thinking, if they were alive today, is: "Why is it so dark in here?"" From Pyramids by Sir Terry Pratchett, a British National Treasure.

                  __________________________________

                  Comment


                  • Here's the link to the layout of the court that's posted on the CBook.

                    "What our ancestors would really be thinking, if they were alive today, is: "Why is it so dark in here?"" From Pyramids by Sir Terry Pratchett, a British National Treasure.

                    __________________________________

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Celesta View Post
                      Hello Sam,

                      Can you straighten me out on this shed? I thought I understood, but now I'm not sure anymore! Where was it supposed to be? I've been using the diagram in the back of James Tully's book. I thought the shed was tacked onto the building opposite # 13 and on the same side of the court. IE across from Mary's windows.

                      Thanks.

                      Cel
                      Hi Celesta,

                      I know you asked Sam, but I believe its the only door on Dorset Street to #26, to the left of the archway, or right by photograph. It is on the ground floor, under a room above. It was at the front for convenience, to offload supplies right from a horse and cart.

                      Cheers

                      Comment


                      • Changing Rooms

                        Blimey', are we still going on about Prater's room location? I'm sure this came up in my read only years and then somebody turned up some pretty good evidence or record that the room directly above was unoccupied.I'm rubbish though ,I can't remember the poster or find the source.Think Glenn Anderson may have been involved..Sam, don't you recall that? or am I dreaming? Anybody? I'm sure this little skirmish of Michael and Sam's is resolvable by that route anyway..and NOT by picking over Prater's statements..I WAS familiar with most of those by the way Michael, but thanks for your concern..I think the nub of it lies exactly in the idea that those statements seem to some of us to reflect a ghoulish tendency by journalists to locate Prater as near as possible...a tendency that she may have even gone along with herself ,for whatever reason..so the telegraph one ,though a little outnumbered (though not as heavily as you suggest as most in that number are still very vague),may well be the most reliable.

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                        • Having now read the full account on the Old Bailey site of the Marshall Murder on the first floor of 26 a few years later, and its clear account of two rooms and storeroom on tha tfloorl and also bearing in mind that the passageway ie the building was 20 feet form front to back, I think there must have been more than one room on the floor on which Prater lived. Which makes me less sure where she was.

                          But I don't think it matter tbh! NO-ONE in the immediate vicinity heard any sound of any struggle, and Pater only heard a faint single cry of 'murder!'. She was very drunk by all accounts, and in that state it's all too easy to imagine things, mis-remember, and confuse oneself and others. She was so drunk she woke in the night - as one does, when very de-hydrated by alcohol! - and was so 'in drink' that she had to get up very early and go and top up with more rum - three hours in the early morning! I'd not set too much store by anything she says.

                          I'm more interested in the several accounts of her having been seen by a few people she knew well AFTER the murder! I don't think we can be 100% certain she was the victim, unless Kelly's observation of her 'tattoos' is to be believed (and I can't see how he could have made them out, unless it was at the mortuary)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                            The room with the purple pane is on the second floor, however.

                            Duh! So it is... I'd somehow mis-read the room above MJK's as a mezzanine - think I'd better lie down in a dark room LOL

                            Do we know if Prater was on the first or the second floor - or just 'over/above' MJK - if she was above the 'shed' - which we know to be the front ground floor room?

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                            • still think she heard stuff though. couldn't just sleep through it like so many others could she? daft, inconsistent stories she came out with, singing ,cats, faint cries, maybe it was a 24 hour area ..didn't stop others from sleeping through the whole thing, and maybe she did go along with what people expected she might have heard..played upto it even, but then again maybe she heard MORE than that too..and actually toned it down.. maybe, maybe,maybe.... whoops sorry i'm off again.......er..its a very good demolition photograph, love the colour coding!

                              Comment


                              • Hi Michael,

                                Thank you! I knew about that. I was interpreting "shed" differently. I think of that area in # 26 as the "storage area." To me a shed is a less substantial building, usually small. No wonder I was scratching my head.

                                Thank you, Michael.

                                Best,

                                Cel
                                Last edited by Celesta; 11-25-2008, 06:25 AM.
                                "What our ancestors would really be thinking, if they were alive today, is: "Why is it so dark in here?"" From Pyramids by Sir Terry Pratchett, a British National Treasure.

                                __________________________________

                                Comment

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