Millers Court - the demolition picture

[perrymason]

Hi again,

Chris, thanks for taking the time to post the various press versions. I see that Sam has decided that the evidence suggests that she lived over the shed facing Dorset Street, despite just re-reading these sections within your post......they are numbered in order of their appearance in Chris's post....

1)..."I did not take much notice of the cries as I frequently hear such cries from the back of the lodging house where the windows look into Millers Court", attributed to Elizabeth Prater

2)..."I live at No 20 Room in Millers Court up stairs. I lived in the room over where deceased lived"....."I went up to my room. On the stairs I could see a glimmer through the partition if there had been a light in the deceased's room. I might not have noticed it. I did not take particular notice"...."I could have heard her moving if she had moved"

3)...." I was deserted by my husband five years ago. I live at No. 20 in Miller's Court"....."I did not hear the cry a second time. I did not hear any bed or table being pulled about".

4)...."Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, said: My husband, William Prater, was a boot machinist, and he has deserted me. I live at 20 Room, in Miller's-court, above the shed. Deceased occupied a room below"

5)....."Elizabeth Prater, wife of a boot machinist, deposed , "I live at No. 20 Room in Miller's-court. Deceased lived in the room below me"

6)....."I was deserted by my husband five years ago. I live at No. 20, in Miller's-court."

7)...."Elizabeth Prater, wife of a boot machinist living in No 20 Room, Miller's court, said that the deceased lived in the room below her"

8)......"a young married woman living apart from her husband, in 20 Room, Miller's-court, said: My room is just over that of the deceased"

9)...."Elizabeth Prater, a married woman, living apart from her husband, said she occupied No. 20 room, Miller's-court, her room being just over that occupied by the deceased. If deceased moved about in her room much witness could hear her". No less than the London Times as the source.


One quote of 9 alledges that the room was over the shed, and in that quote it also alledges her room was above Marys. They are not compatible locations.....using both the floor plans available and their numbers as reflective of their actual state the morning of the 9th. So the only quote that refers to the shed must be discounted due to the phrasing that suggests a geographical impossibility, an error that a tenant of some length of time likley wouldnt make,.. but by the quote, did. That leaves all the remaining quotes, .....(I think the number of errors on the address being 20 Millers Court is almost universal, so that evens out)...either not specifying a location or specifying the location as "over" or "above" Marys Janes room. In one quote the windows backing onto the court is referred to specifically by Elizabeth as being how she hears calls on other nights.

She refers specifically to hearing furniture if being moved about in Marys room after Elizabeth is in her room.

She refers to the cry heard "as if from the court"...after she has told us of the windows facing them.

I respect anyones right to their own opinion, but to suggest that the overwhelming ratio of "over the room" to "over the shed" is a contest is a stretch. It is the floor plans that we have all seen and some used as gospel that dictated #20 was over the shed, and what precise shape the room was, well......Im guessing when Liz lived there, after the original layout had been modified, room 20 looked different.....We have made that mistake. Because clearly what we have used to determine who was where in the house is not accurate on those floor plans when juxtaposed with Liz's statements.....as I said before, numerous times, unless the blueprints are from that month and that year, you have no way of knowing the exact configuration of the rooms themselves on November 8th, 1888. The names may have been written into rooms on older blueprints that were nothing like the configuration looked like their current layout, but to show who was in what number, an older version might have seemed ok. That floor plan may have been filled in by McCarthy for all we know, using the older layout prints.

Its our own fault, well, those of us that rely on old blueprints, which isnt me.....because "weve" been assuming that the floor plans refelected the actual layout as well as numeration, when that is hardly likely since the floor plans are not current to the date.

Best regards all.

[perrymason]

I'm sure this has been discussed upthread, but I thought Prater testified that she didn't hear Kelly singing that night...

Correct. The only thing she heard is a voice "as from the court" calling "oh-murder" in a faintish volume at approx 3:45am.

Cheers Chava

[Sam Flynn]

One quote of 9 alledges that the room was over the shed, and in that quote it also alledges her room was above Marys.

Looking at various newspaper reports, some of them cloned, and many of them only in precis puts us in real danger of not seeing the wood for the trees. Better to look at those reports with additional detail wherever possible.

"I live in number 20 Room, Miller's Court... above the shed". Why in the name of all that's sane would the Telegraph's transcript of the inquest testimony make that detail up?

[Chava]

"Living in the room over her" could simply mean living in the room above her--in the sense of on the floor above, rather than in the sense of directly above. I don't think it matters that much whether Prater lived directly above or off to one side. Given the jerrybuilt nature of the whole court, I'd expect her to be able to hear pretty clearly what was going on in Kelly's room.

[Sam Flynn]

I'm sure that any old goings-on in Kelly's room would not have been audible, Chava, however a scream certainly would have been.

[DVV]

Here is the link.

To the thread

There is also a dissertation by Andy Aliffe:

To Andy's dissertation

Regards,

Mark

Thanks a lot, Mark!

[Chava]

Given what was going on Gareth, I think she should have been able to hear some of it! Especially since there were small defensive wounds on Kelly's hands, which meant there was at least a semblance of a struggle. However all this is rendered moot for me, because (a) I am pretty sure that Prater was drunk that night. She says she went to bed clothed and I'll bet she was really glad to get there. I think she probably slept like a well-soaked log, woke up when Diddles stepped on her neck, heard a faint scream of 'murder' from somewhere, and went back to sleep. And (b) I am also pretty sure that the 'murder' cry had nothing whatsoever to do with Kelly's death. If she had had the opportunity to get out those three syllables, she had the opportunity to fight a lot harder than she did. Yes he could have overpowered her quickly. But also there would probably have been more of a struggle and more noise.

[perrymason]

I'm sure that any old goings-on in Kelly's room would not have been audible, Chava, however a scream certainly would have been.

Im at a loss to see why you are making statements that are discreditted using posts that have already been made Sam....she says she heard when Mary moved about, and not in the context with climbing the stairs before you say it, in the context of her being inside her own room when she hears.

As to why the report says "over the shed"....which again is followed by "over Marys room", Ive offered an explanation that makes that fundamentally, geographically incorrect statement logical. If the shape of the room marked number 20 is not accurate as seen in the floor-numeration plans.... dated well before November 8, 1888.

There has been a single quote of "over the shed", yet you place that as the trustworthy account despite that 88.88% percent of the accounts in total record the statement "over Marys/the deceased's room" instead.

You suggest Elizabeth couldnt hear noises from Marys room, yet she said she could her own self.

You say that she had no windows looking into the court, yet she says at the back of the house the windows looked into the court.

Its clear to me that you are denying what the witness herself said was the case in terms of the rooms and their position to each other, so this is a good time for me to slip out of this thread, I cant really argue with illogical positions.

Adios and Cheers, Best regards.

[Sam Flynn]

Given what was going on Gareth, I think she should have been able to hear some of it!

Quite possibly - although whether the mere sounds of struggling, let alone butchery, would have carried up the stairs and past Prater's door is still rather dubious. And, as you point out, Prater was rather sozzled.

[Sam Flynn]

Im at a loss to see why you are making statements that are discreditted using posts that have already been made Sam....she says she heard when Mary moved about, and not in the context with climbing the stairs before you say it, in the context of her being inside her own room when she hears.

No she doesn't. Read the reports carefully.

As to why the report says "over the shed"....which again is followed by "over Marys room"

The report doesn't say that - it says "in A room above the deceased". Accuracy is everything, Mike.

You say that she had no windows looking into the court, yet she says at the back of the house the windows looked into the court.

Indeed she does - and she hears sounds coming from the back of the lodging-house, where those windows are located. Why "from the back of the lodging-house"... why not "outside my window"? The answer - or so it would appear - is that outside her window was Dorset Street itself, not the court.

Its clear to me that you are denying what the witness herself said

Prater said that her room was "above the shed" - did the Telegraph make that up?

I'm not the one in denial here.

[White-Knight]

Sam, I think anybody on these message boards should take a very deep breath indeed before countering ANY opinions you are prepared to present.I have read many ,many of your posts before registering here myself recently.
Its a small challenge and a pedantic one. I'd be grateful if you could tell me, do you actually dismiss the possibility of Prater hearing the 'moving about' in Kelly's room FROM WITHIN HER OWN ROOM? I know technically she does not say this or possibly at the time of her saying what she does say even mean to imply it. But I do have a notion, unproven and speculative only, that in quieter moments upstairs this would have been quite possible.
Again, pure speculation, but what evidence do we have that Prater heard as little as she suggests.Is it automatically assumed that she tells us everything she is able? I don't know what foundation I am suggesting this on other than my own experience of living in a slightly similar environment (see my first post) in which I often find it surprising what CAN be heard 'from the court'. I am not suggesting anything particularly conspiratorial but given the lack of evidence generally and considering the numbers of people in close proximity to some of the crimes, and the relative lack of witness testimony, would it not be fair to suggest that someone such as Prater might just spill as much as it may have seemed was a reasonable minimum to have heard? something relevant in 'oh murder' but not too relevant (as such cries were heard often) as to draw her in or involve her too much.I don't know if i trust that cat story ,it seems too co-incidental.I don't know what she heard.But I'm not sure she would tell us. Not a conspiracy. Just distaste,fear, the old tradition of not wanting to get involved.If I had heard stuff going on in that room ,that night, I'm not sure how I'd cope, psychologically.I'm not sure what i would be able to say about it ,particularly soon after the event. And I might be considering that I wanted to sound like I'd heard very little.I might want to convince myself of that too, as well as everybody else.I might just want to forget about it. And in another time and space,Sam, with ripperology unborn, crime rates high, streets unlit, doors unlocked and policing and detection still in its infancy, wouldn't you?

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, I think anybody on these message boards should take a very deep breath indeed before countering ANY opinions you are prepared to present.I have read many ,many of your posts brfore registering here myself recently.

Thanks for the kind words - but I'm as much fair game as anyone. Being challenged is the best way to learn, I've found!

I'd be grateful if you could tell me, do you actually dismiss the possibility of Prater hearing the 'moving about' in Kelly's room FROM WITHIN HER OWN ROOM?

I don't dismiss it out of hand - my particular brand of pedantry tells me that she never said as much, which is not the impression one might get from reading some of the literature. That said, if my interpretation of the sources is correct - and I sincerely believe that it is - then a simple thought-experiment (or even a real one) should suffice to show that "everyday" sounds from Room 13 would not have been particularly audible from a room above the shed, at the front of 26 Dorset Street.

We're talking about a horizontal separation of perhaps 15 yards, up a flight of stairs and with at least one door in the way; the sort of configuration one might find in a good sized house, between the front bedroom and a conservatory tacked on to the back room on the ground floor. Whereas a scream, plates smashing, or furniture being thrown around in the "conservatory" might well be heard from that front bedroom, it's unlikely that anything much quieter would be noticed even under the best conditions.

[DVV]

I don't live in Miller's Court but can hear my neighbors.
Very unpleasant, believe me. That's why I drink more than Prater.

[DVV]

Whereas a scream, plates smashing, or furniture being thrown around in the "conservatory" might well be heard from that front bedroom, it's unlikely that anything much quieter would be noticed even under the best conditions.

And the conditions weren't good that night. It was raining after 3:00, if I'm correct.

Amitiés,
David

[White-Knight]

ok guys, thanks for those replies. duly noted. whilst you were writing and sending I edited and added to that post. raining eh? yes I'd heard that it would have to be voluable noise and I know we've no solid reason to believe the crimes were noisy..so swift... kind of cuts down the possibility but what do you all make of Prater psychologically speaking?...appreciate any thoughts to the additions...if she had heard more, would she tell us?