Millers Court - the demolition picture

[Sam Flynn]

I don't recall any mention of any other doors in Mary's room, boarded up or not. Prater certainly doesn't mention one.

Walter Dew might have, in his book I Caught Crippen, p.147:

"The room was on the ground floor and about 12ft by 10ft. A sort of one-room flat. The only door in use was that by which we had entered.
There was another, leading to the upper part of the house, but this had been nailed up."

My usual caveats about the reliability of Dew's memoirs apply

[Stephen Thomas]

Hi Chava

I don't recall any mention of any other doors in Mary's room, boarded up or not. Prater certainly doesn't mention one. There does appear to be a door behind the bed in the photo but this could be just an old door that was used in the construction of the partition. I don't think anybody knows either way.

Kitchen fireplace grates from this period were not, I believe, much larger than regular grates, the difference being that the kitchen fireplace had a more open metal inset with flat surfaces either side of the grate and a drop down hinged metal grille on which to heat water or cook food over the burning coal.

This is a contemporary illustration, kindly posted here previously by Stewart Evans, showing the fireplace.

[Chava]

OK, wait a second. I am probably reading far too much into this, so please bear with me. Kelly lived in the back-parlour/kitchen of #27. The fireplace was on the far wall. The door into the rest of the house was on the wall where her bed had originally been placed--it was moved, I believe, for some photographs to be taken. What do we know about the fireplace? Was it the original fireplace to what may have been the kitchen of the house? Or was it a replacement fireplace appropriate for a rented room? I ask because, if it was the original fireplace, it would have been used for cooking apart from anything else, and so would have been quite wide and high and so could have supported a large fire quite happily. However if it had been replaced by a regular Victorian coal-fire grate, it would have been much, much smaller. We have a Victorian coal fire in our house. We can (carefully) burn small amounts of wood on it. But it sits low down on the wall, and gives out a fair amount of heat but not much light. Coal would have given out more heat but less light, I think. What Prater says is ambiguous, but it sounds like she says she could see light around the boarded-up door when she came in that night. I think, if Kelly's bed had been blocking the lower half of the door, it would have blocked a lot of light from a Victorian coal-fire grate, and I think it's unlikely Prater would have seen anything even though she's coming into pitch-black conditions. However, if the bed had been moved a little--say pulled away from the wall to allow the killer complete access to Kelly's body--then I think it's possible she would see some glimmers of light coming from there. I know that there are photographs with the bed in a couple of positions. Is it possible the bed was discovered slightly away from the wall? And then pushed back to allow the photographer more room?

[John Bennett]

I always thought it was a tragedy that Miller's Court and Duval Street were demolished - so much history and atmosphere!

Not least a veritable sh*t-hole.

[Veritas]

Demolition of the norhtern part of Duval Street was in 1928. I always thought it was a tragedy that Miller's Court and Duval Street were demolished - so much history and atmosphere!

[Sam Flynn]

Indeed, Stephen - but the key question is whether "any great numbers" were involved. I'd imagine that one could get half a dozen or so costers' barrows into the space of a front room - depending on the actual size of the barrow, of course.

There's an authentic London costers' barrow shown here, which is 7 feet long and some 2.5 feet wide. Hardly Big Bertha - in fact, it's quite a narrer barrer

(Incidentally, the wee beauty at the end of that link can be yours for £1,200. I'm quite tempted to pitch for it meself: 'twould look loverly in the garden!)

[Stephen Thomas]

Hi Sam

Yes, but was it not described in 1888 as a storage area for costermonger's barrows? These were pretty bulky items and would need quite a large amount of space to be stored in any great numbers.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

I sincerely doubt that McCarthy would have needed all that much space - the front of the first floor (minus Kelly's room) must have covered almost 400 square feet which, allied to an assumed height of 10' for the rooms, comes to 4,000 cubic feet of space. Even lopping off a small proportion of that to allow for "Prater's stairs", that's one heck of a storage area for a small chandler's shop. And let's be under no illusion as what such shops would have been like: remember, there was a cat-meat shop in one room in Hanbury Street; and Matthew Packer, fruiterer, operated his emporium by lifting the sash window and sticking his head out.

Thats a great drawing Stephen, I dont think Ive seen that before...thanks.

I think to address both yours and Sams points, although many things were perishable like sugar or flour or whathaveyou's...things McCarthy may even have sold to his tenants....some things were still bought in bulk sizes, and may have required a barrel or crate to be shipped. Like boxes of nails, or lumber. The fact that the position of the shed itself was to prevent heavy goods from having to be carried by hand into the court via the archway, there is some support for the notion larger containers of longer term storage items...like maybe booze, or cloth were stored too.

Maybe McCarthy even runs a Tuck shop for daily need items for his tenants, soap, salt,...maybe some things like molasses.

Best regards

[Stephen Thomas]

The "shed" may well have been almost all of the ground floor of #26, excluding only the space that the stairs occupy, and the room in the courtyard.

That seems to have been the case, Michael. Originally the ground floor of #26 would have had a front parlour facing Dorset Street and a smaller back parlour with a hallway and stairs on the left. It could well be that the internal non-supporting walls had been taken out leaving just the staircase in a large open storage area. It couldn't have abutted any part of Mary's room as there was 'Prater's staircase' in-between. This is the only illustration I know of that shows the gate/gates of the so-called shed.

[Sam Flynn]

I think that may be germaine when considering what a comments like "over the shed", and "deceased lived below her" might entail.

I think what's even more germane are the specific reference to Prater living in the first-floor front room, and the report of the couple living in the room directly above Kelly having slept soundly all night, Mike.

Besides, if you look at the groundplan of Miller's court, the "shed" couldn't have run past Kelly's fireplace, because the wall on which the fireplace was located abutted onto the premises next door.

The "shed" is a euphemism for Storage Room in this case, its not what any modern person would imagine as a seperate structure, nor is it likely a tiny area.

Well, the original "front room" on the ground floor of #26 would have offered more than enough space to stow a few barrows and goods - indeed, I'd have thought that a room the size of Kelly's would have offered more than enough space for a shop the size of McCarthy's. One of my local retail barons ran a convenience store in a terraced house, and had his store-room and living quarters (for his wife, two boys and a budgie) under the same roof. True, he used his garage to store some frozen goods - but that was because he had a freezer.

Goods in McCarthy's day would have been more perishable, and therefore storage and transport needs would have been more transient and less space-intensive than they would become in the heyday of tinned foodstuffs, chest-freezers and bulk catering suppliers.

Hello all,

I woke up in the middle of the night last night, and for whatever reason, this thought popped up...

The "shed" is a euphemism for Storage Room in this case, its not what any modern person would imagine as a seperate structure, nor is it likely a tiny area. This area was likely used by McCarthy to store goods for 26 and 27, and perhaps other properties if he owns any others yet, Im not sure on that. Regardless, it is quite possibly a large area, one that may even have a space that abutted the wall in Marys room that the fireplace was on..where her little shelf and perhaps a small chest were. Which would be the end wall on the ground floor landing where the archway entrance is, running underneath the staircase. It may have gone as far as the wall that holds Marys windows that face the dustbin, with the pump to the right. A small nook area in that back corner maybe.

I think that may be germaine when considering what a comments like "over the shed", and "deceased lived below her" might entail.

The "shed" may well have been almost all of the ground floor of #26, excluding only the space that the stairs occupy, and the room in the courtyard. It may have been more like what we call a basement, but in this case, above ground.

Best regards all.

[Chava]

Note that someone hearing a faint scream doesn't mean that Kelly cried out faintly.

Well, yeah. I've been saying that for months. I don't think she had a second to formulate anything so articulate. I think she had the chance to put her hand in front of her face, and that is all the time she got, poor woman.

And thanks, Gareth, for the info on the sleeping couple upstairs. When I thought all of Millers Court was thrown up by cowboys, I assumed it would be easy to hear what was going on downstairs. But Kelly lived in the house, and that house would have originally built for fairly prosperous silk-weavers and I'm sure was properly and solidly constructed. So not quite so easy to hear noise from below.

(First rule of buying to renovate: consider what level of society the house--even if it's now a slum--was built for. Well-off people=well-built house...)

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Chava

If Prater didn't occupy that room, I am assuming someone else did, and we'd hear from them

We do. Or, rather, we don't - because they didn't hear anything. The Daily Telegraph of 10th November reports that a couple who lived in the room above Mary Kelly slept soundly all night.

I think it's unlikely she would have heard anything, let alone Kelly cry out faintly.

Note that someone hearing a faint scream doesn't mean that Kelly cried out faintly. Besides, to a person awake at the front of the house, a scream from the back room would have been quite audible.

[Chava]

I just read Fiona Rule's excellent book about Dorset St. She gives us a lot of information about Millers Court and something there struck me as interesting. Lizzie Prater testifies that she could see the glimmer of light through the old disused door as she went up to her room which was above Kelly's. Kelly lived in the old back-parlour--probably originally the kitchen, since it doesn't sound as if there was a basement where the kitchen would be in later Georgian row houses. The old door could only be on the wall that divided that room from the rest of the house, and Prater would have accessed her room, not from the Court, but from within the house itself. So I think she would have entered from Dorset Street, walked past the 'shed' which would likely be the original morning room, and then walked up the stairs to her room, which would either be above the shed or above Kelly's room. And she could have seen light glimmering around the edges of the old door beyond the stairs as she went up. Especially since it was probably pitch-black going into that house.

If she walked back along the landing to the room above the shed, I think it's unlikely she would have heard anything, let alone Kelly cry out faintly. If she walked forward to the room over Kelly's, then she might well have heard something. If Prater didn't occupy that room, I am assuming someone else did, and we'd hear from them, because they would be the nearest to the murder. Or, I believe, the point would have been made that the room was vacant or its tenants away. After all, we can see the windows, there was definitely a room there. So I'm prepared to believe that Prater lived directly over top of Kelly. (However I'm still not putting too much stock on 'oh murder!)