Millers Court - the demolition picture

[perrymason]

Hi Sam, Chava,

Im sorry for handling this with sarcasm Gareth, because I do know that you are intent on this answer to the question, Ive mostly been testy because youre not even acknowledging the precarious perch the statement has, when viewed in the entire collection of articles on that night and that court. As I said, I defended your right to the opinion before, and even modified my own beliefs out of respect, that being that I do not believe a voice could be heard as described by Elizabeth via a front window so I suggested a front and rear, that might be in some way confirmed by the post of Chris's referring to her room over the "gateway". If her room bordered the archway, which it almost certainly did, then that window in the archway over the court could be as I said, in the rear corner or her room..if there is a slight alcove there. And she would ostensibly be "over the shed".

Its that you are moving ahead before I or anyone who shares my opinion has been acknowledged as a having valid evidence in hand that does suggest a different scenario.

Thanks for following up on the time on the light in the room Chava, I found that interesting too....and in that account a trip out seems unlikely....it paints the two as sharing the evening together, her and Blotchy.

Told ya....he is not out of the woods on this at all.


edit....I just had a thought,....what if Blotchys job was to get Mary to drink something to knock her out, then leave her to "Mr X".

Cheers gents, all.

[perrymason]

Hi MIchael,

Yes, I think that Elizabeth knew very well that she could have been the victim. I think she knew that he could have come home with any of the women there, or simply marked them in the street and followed them back.

Best,

Cel

Does she strike you as a bit of a church mouse Celesta? I think she does to me, and that type, even though a drinker...as many devoutly religious people are, would be hard pressed to lie to anyone. Escpecially if scared out of her wits, which a chest of drawers and a chair blocking her door upstairs indicates.

And I dont recall hearing Mary Ann, Sarah...who had to spend the afternoon at the Keylers when the court was locked down, or Julia, ever mentioning seeing Mary dead in her room.

All the best Ms C.

[DVV]

And the fire seems to have been used to light the room while the Ripper went about his work.

That doesn't mean that Kelly didn't light a fire first.
And later, the murderer could have feed it with clothes.

Amitiés,
David

[perrymason]

That doesn't mean that Kelly didn't light a fire first.
And later, the murderer could have feed it with clothes.

Amitiés,
David

David, just a small point on the clothing, the only items we know were recovered that were burned were a rim to bonnet and what appears to be the remains of a skirt. Those were among a few things Maria left there, and only they and the pilot coat are discussed as evidence later. I dont know where the other things went, but there may not have been much burned at all.

The remains of a large fire in the hearth could be the result of a woman being less likely to clean it out regularly now that her man has gone....it may have been cumulative ash.

Cheers David.

[DVV]

Hello Mike,
you may be right, but I was merely pointing out that Chava was right: a weak candle light could hardly be noticeable behind the curtains from outside. But the fact that the murderer "worked" with the light of a fire doesn't mean that Kelly has not made a fire when she was (alive) with BF.
Amitiés mon cher,
david

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam, Chava,

Im sorry for handling this with sarcasm Gareth, because I do know that you are intent on this answer to the question

It's a perfectly legitimate question, based on very specific information, taken from two separate press accounts that - for one reason or another - does not appear in the majority of sources. That doesn't mean the information is incorrect, and it's a fact of life that not everything escapes the editor's pen or overrides the effect of writer's cramp on inquest scribes.

On the contrary, the fact that these pieces of info remain rather difficult to explain away, in terms of a slip of the pen or whatever, suggests to me that the sources are most probably reliable. I emphatically don't find this "precarious" by a long chalk.

Ive mostly been testy because youre not even acknowledging the precarious perch the statement has, when viewed in the entire collection of articles on that night and that court.

It only takes a misprint, a mis-hearing or the cloning of a contextually-starved summary to account for that "collection of articles", Mike.

...but I've already said that

[Chava]

The thing about the fire is that a regular fire would also be unlikely to cast enough light to penetrate that window-covering. Also we'd need to know which wall that fireplace was on. I assume it would be on the wall opposite the bed or on the wall beside the bed. Either way, that is a fair distance from the window. That fire would have to be extremely strong to throw that much light.

[Sam Flynn]

I never had any issues with a window front and back, which would enable me to agree to her room location as being "over the shed", I just have issues when there is suggestion that she must have heard that voice as it came through the archway and bounced back to her room, because she only had a Dorset window.

Nobody's suggested that, Mike - at least, it's certainly not something I'd argue. The sound would have travelled reasonably well inside the house, and with only a "matchwood-thin" partition, a stairwell, a few yards of landing and an interior door to negotiate, there wouldn't have been much in the way. It's not even necessary to posit an "L-shaped room", because a scream issued from Number 13 would easily carry to the first-floor front - no need for the sound to bounce back from out of the archway at all.

[DVV]

The thing about the fire is that a regular fire would also be unlikely to cast enough light to penetrate that window-covering. Also we'd need to know which wall that fireplace was on. I assume it would be on the wall opposite the bed or on the wall beside the bed. Either way, that is a fair distance from the window. That fire would have to be extremely strong to throw that much light.

Hi Chava,
what an obvious exageration!
There were no shutters, that was just a broken window with clothes used as curtains... It's obvious that, at night, the light would have been visible, especially since the room was a very little one.

[Stephen Thomas]

There are two that obstinately remain, however, Mike, as well as that nugget about the couple in the room above Kelly sleeping through it all. Like I said - these are logically consistent within themselves, and with those newspaper accounts that place Prater merely "above" or "in A room above" Kelly. Logically consistent, also, with Prater's utterances about noises off.

I've yet to see an interpretation based on the alternative, "traditional", view that could explain all that - irrespective of how many otherwise worthy sources in which it might have cropped up. It only takes a slip of the pen, a mis-hearing or the cloning of a context-starved summary to account for those. In contrast, it would take the mother of all typos to account for such things as "first floor front room", "I live above the shed" and "the couple in the room above the deceased".

Hi Sam

Yes, this is all quite surreal, isn't it? To conflate 3 statements by Prater, she says 'I live in Room 20 which is at the front of the house above the shed and almost above the room of the deceased'. Given that we know that the shed was a storage area in the ground floor front of #26 and 'front' doesn't mean 'back' and 'almost over' doesn't mean 'directly over' then it would seem reasonable to assume that Prater did not live in the room directly over Kelly and a million 'overs' and 'just overs' and 'right overs' wouldn't negate this assumption. People are bending over backwards to defend the fair enough once upon a time idea that Prater lived directly above Kelly by proposing that Prater must have had a suite of 3 rooms, that Kelly's room was referred to as a shed, that lodging house proprietors kindly kept bright lights at the back of their buildings burning until 3 in the morning, that sounds from a room directly below appear to come through the window and that Jack McCarthy would bother to put himself out to change the number of the room above Kelly from #20 in 1888 to #14 in 1898.

[perrymason]

Im cogitating Sam, Ill get back to you on a point or two, but I did want to address the issue of the window covering.

There were muslin curtains on the windows, (see Bowyers testimony), and it appears the Pilot coat might have covered the broken lower pane, the one that Barnett used to gain access to the spring lock when they locked themselves out. I think the coat placement was ideally just to keep the chill out.

Chava, the fireplace was on the wall opposite the door, and by angle alone, light would likely been visible to anyone walking past Marys room into the court, or back that way...so that rules out Sarah. So when they suggest it was Mary Ann that saw the light at 2am, its plausible.

Best regards all.

[Chava]

Actually I don't think it's an exaggeration. Have you seen the size of contemporary coal-burning grates? They aren't big. A regular fire would cast some light, to be sure. And I know that heat radiates. But I don't believe light does. Yes, if there is a window on the wall where the door was, Cox may have seen light coming from Kelly's room, or if there was enough space between the wood slats of the door. Even then, I don't think a regular fire would give off enough light to be noticed. But for there to be enough light to gleam through the windows of the wall on the left of the fireplace? Must have been a roaring fire.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Chava, All

Whether the light was detectable or not from outside, it's worth bearing in mind that its visibility would be dictated to a large extent by the ambient lighting in the court itself (and, indeed, the surrounding "light landscape", to coin a phrase). If - as might be the case - the general light levels in that area were poor, it need not have required Mary's fire to have been particularly brilliant to have been noticed outside her room, or via cracks in the door/partition.

PS: Light and heat both radiate from a fire - in fact, they're manifestations of the same phenomenon (electromagnetic radiation).

[perrymason]

Stephen,

I can assure you that sarcasm therapy doesnt work, I gave it up myself. The thing is that you have completely ignored a solution that satisfies both parties....If she had a window open in the back of the house that she could hear noises "as from the court" through. Or if that archway window is in her back corner. Despite all assurances to the contrary, a noise made from the court could not realisitically be heard as from that location by a woman only seconds awake from a drunk sleep with only a Dorset facing window. Unless she is out of bed and at that window at the time,...which she is not.

On the light in the court, opposite Marys windows there was a white two story wall, opposite her door was a gaslamp, likely above or near The Keylers door or Julias.

Thats why I said no-one would see dim light cast through the window unless they passed her door and went into the court, thereby offering an opportunity to see the light on the white wall, if any, when the gaslamp light is behind the person, or coming back out and looking inside the room.

Mary Ann is the only one who could have had those views, so thats why a few accounts that suggest light was seen by her until 2...not the 1:30 room dark scenario that most have embraced by Liz's comments when climbing the stairs, are quite interesting to me. And they suggest a pick-up at a bar, some singing and perhaps chat, then a bed down together....reminding us all that these women did have relationships with men that did not involve fees and Mary had probably slept alone for 8 days.

Best regards all.

[Chava]

Excellent point, Gareth! We don't hear about Cox going up and back in the small hours at the inquest but I imagine she must have done. I suspect she came back to her room to use the chamber pot...