MJK Murder Oddities

[perrymason]

Hi Sam,

I appreciate you digging around, I have seen those quotes...as recently as today in fact.....but I think youre too generous in thinking the first sounded like where I might have got that remark from. It isnt specific regarding furniture, and Im still fairly certain there is one that speaks to that, beyond her answering a direct question on hearing such noise.

I do agree that your interpretation is possible, I did see her refer to sounds and light regarding Marys room via the partition, but at least one quote I saw in the last 24 hours had her remarking specifically about her visual/hearing capabilities from "ground level"...being on the same level as Mary, as in about to start up the stairs.....and sounds she could hear when she was in her room.

When asked directly, DID she hear furniture move when she awoke from Diddles walk-over, in her room...not COULD she, or WOULD she have,...she said she heard nothing, followed by..she fell asleep again right away. It appears as if her statement is that she could have heard such things, but didnt, and she fell fast asleep again.

I saw reports that had her seeing no light, not noticing, hearing her through the partition...and not hearing things she might have heard when she was in bed.

If you look through most of them, her contention that she could hear Mary move about isnt limited to when she was on the other side of the partition climbing stairs.

Ill keep digging around....and I do see your side Sam, just that I believe there is a quote that more directly addresses whether she could hear things move, and from where she could hear them.

Best regards as always Sam

edit.....Sam you also have to acknowledge that some of these quotes refer to Elizabeths comments on her rooms location as being "directly above" Marys room.....something that would add more credence to her ability to hear sounds from #13 if accurate.

Thats why I had the Open Door pitch about the "oh-murder" before on other threads....if Elizabeth didnt hear the sound as "from Marys room"....which if she was above it would make sense, if she hears other things....so why did she hear the voice "as from the court"? Cause her window faced the courtyard and a 2 storey wall, and Marys door was open. At least thats my suggestion on the events.

Cheers again.

[Chava]

I know this has been discussed, but Prater lives above the shed, doesn't she? So she's not directly over Kelly's room. She says she would have seen light from #13 as she went up the stairs. Where were the stairs? Did she access them from a point beside #13? Probably just past that water pump thing? Because what she says could mean that the partition was so thin between Kelly's room and the stairs, not between Kelly's room and Prater's room.

However there is still the problem that Cox hears Kelly singing at 1.00 and Prater hears nothing at all. I'd like to know how those two were telling the time. Did the church clocks and brewers' clocks chime throughout the night?

[perrymason]

I know this has been discussed, but Prater lives above the shed, doesn't she? So she's not directly over Kelly's room. She says she would have seen light from #13 as she went up the stairs. Where were the stairs? Did she access them from a point beside #13? Probably just past that water pump thing? Because what she says could mean that the partition was so thin between Kelly's room and the stairs, not between Kelly's room and Prater's room.

However there is still the problem that Cox hears Kelly singing at 1.00 and Prater hears nothing at all. I'd like to know how those two were telling the time. Did the church clocks and brewers' clocks chime throughout the night?

Hi Chava,

Youve asked the 64,000 question...was her room over Marys....and there really is no simple answer. She is quoted as saying it was, floor plans of the residence disagree, and we do have the quote that she resided over the shed....although not from Elizabeth herself, but as part of the article from the author. What she could hear, and how, are key points on where the call might have orginated, and we cant be certain.

The stairs were accessed via a doorway inside the archway, and were to the right of Marys partition wall. The partition is really a partial wall with doorway and a jamb that has been sealed with a used door. Some images reveal what appears to be the faded number 26 on that door in the jamb. There would be cracks she could see light through, due to the less than flush fit likely of the door in that space.

Cox hears singing because she walks past Marys room at approx 1:15am....Prater doesnt even come in until almost 1:30....the singing had ceased by then, and Elizabeth who entered via the archway, didnt see Mary or Blotchy leave when the room goes dark and quiet.

Elizabeth Prater is quoted in her own words that she lived above Mary, she herself said she could hear Mary moving about without the "through the partition" qualifier....she has said that she heard the voice as if "from the court", virtually impossible without her having a courtyard window...and there are images that show such a window.

Its not clear cut....but I believe despite the floor plans, the cumulative data seems to suggest that she lived above Mary, and could see and hear through the partition in places, and she could hear Mary moving about below her when in her room.

Best regards.

[Chava]

Of course there is another thread that examines all the testimonies together. I started it and then forgot! Duh! Anyway, I'm heading over there to check it out. It's grown since last I was there.

What concerns me about Prater's evidence is that I doubt she'd notice one way or the other if there was light there. The only way she'd note a light would be if the light was really strong. Think about it. You walk home at night. You are looking forward to putting your feet up and relaxing for a while alone--I'm guessing Prater did a lot of walking up and down various streets and had to put up with quite a bit of not-necessarily-attractive company. Do you pay attention to your neighbour's house? I think you don't unless you see something very unusual. What Prater meant, I suspect, was 'I didn't notice anything like that fire they told me was burning in there all night'. If there was a glimmer of light coming through the old door, I doubt she would have noticed. She looks back. Doesn't remember seeing a blaze of light. Says it was dark...

[Sam Flynn]

I do agree that your interpretation is possible

Rather than its being my interpretation, it's a straightforward reading of Prater's verbatim inquest testimony, Mike. This is distinct from the woolly summary contained in the Times, which dangerously leaves out at least ¾ of the relevant context.

I did see her refer to sounds and light regarding Marys room via the partition, but at least one quote I saw in the last 24 hours had her remarking specifically about her visual/hearing capabilities from "ground level"...

You put "ground level" in quotes, as if that's what she said - but be careful! Prater used a similar phrase when she tells of her waiting for someone outside around 1 AM, at which point she was "on the same level as deceased's window". There's no mention of her hearing capabilities at that point and, even if there were, this is no indicator of what Prater was capable of hearing after she'd climbed the stairs and gone back to her room.