On the streets?

[Sam Flynn]

Carried over from an "MJK crime scene analysis" thread...

Mary Cox was venturing out at intervals and apparently servicing her clients where she found them, rather than bringing them home.

I'd have thought, Ben, that this would rather depend on where Cox's "beat" was (or Kelly's for that matter) and how far she was from "home" when she spotted a potential client, or was solicited by one. If a Miller's Court resident were propositioned on within easy walking distance of her room, I can't see why she shouldn't have offered the facility to her customer. It seems quite possible that prostitutes may have been able to charge a few pence extra, in view of the greater discretion available indoors.

[Ben]

Hi Gareth,

Neither woman had occasion to venture too far from Miller's Court before bumping into he nearest potential client (unless they were destined for St. Botolphs or somewhere in that locality), and the fact that Cox was returning home alone each time suggests - to me, at least - that she had no intention of using her room for that purpose. Aside from reasonable doubts as to whether either women would mix "business" with their personal sanctuary, it also seems unlikely that any local punter would have the financial means to cough up for an extended indoors session of the "You will be comfortable" variety.

All the best,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Ben,

the fact that Cox was returning home alone each time suggests - to me, at least - that she had no intention of using her room for that purpose.

It rather suggests to me that this "wretched-looking specimen of East End womanhood" hadn't found too many customers - at least not in the vicinity of her digs. (PS: We only have her word that she was alone, but that's by the by.)

Aside from reasonable doubts as to whether either women would mix "business" with their personal sanctuary

Some sanctuaries these were, Ben! Besides, given the opportunity, would it not be more "reasonable" to favour a bed - or even the floor - of a dry, covered room rather than a damp wall in the open air?

it also seems unlikely that any local punter would have the financial means to cough up for an extended indoors session

I was only thinking in terms of a few pence, and wasn't suggesting that the session would necessarily have to be "extended".

[Ben]

Hi Gareth,

I wouldn't worry too much about the "wretched-looking" reference. Martha Tabram and Annie Chapman weren't exactly stunners, but they somehow managed to pull in the punters. Both were older that Coxie too.

"Besides, given the opportunity, would it not be more "reasonable" to favour a bed - or even the floor - of a dry, covered room rather than a damp wall in the open air?"

I'm not sure. It's a bit of a coin-flip. I can envisage them both deciding, on balence, that Sweaty Cyril and Farting Frank are better dealt with in a few seconds against a covered passage than having them emit their noxious traces in the boudoir. In addition, it would have made more economical sense to service the clients where the prostitutes encountered them, rather than going back and forth home with them.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Sweaty Cyril and Farting Frank are better dealt with in a few seconds against a covered passage

Trouble is, Ben, that for any punter encountered in Commercial Street there were precious few places to go, except "home":



...nearly all the side-roads were densely-populated, and hardly conducive for a bit of "parsley-pushing".

NB: Seems that small image is a clickable thumbnail. Neat!

[Ben]

I dunno, Gareth. I doubt that any jiggery-pokery in Little Paternoster Row would receive any attention.

[Sam Flynn]

I dunno, Gareth. I doubt that any jiggery-pokery in Little Paternoster Row would receive any attention.

Quite possibly, Ben - but for clients picked up on or near Commercial Street Kelly, Cox et al would've had to walk past their nice, dry rooms to get there. There were precious few Paternoster Row equivalents running off Commercial Street itself.

[Ben]

Quite possibly, Ben - but for clients picked up on or near Commercial Street Kelly, Cox et al would've had to walk past their nice, dry rooms to get there.

That's true, Gareth, and for reasons I outlined with my "Farting Frank" scenario, I find that quite plausible!

[Sam Flynn]

That's true, Gareth, and for reasons I outlined with my "Farting Frank" scenario, I find that quite plausible!

I don't find it particularly compelling, I'm afraid, Ben. In fact, if I were to select just one element out of Hutchinson's testimony that rung true, it would be the invitation of comfort offered to him by Mary Kelly. If I have one qualm with that, it's about where Kelly was alleged to have uttered those words. It would make more sense if she'd mentioned it on encountering her punter between F&D/Thrawl Street, rather than wait until they were practically on the threshold of the Garden of Earthly Delights, at the entrance to Miller's Court.

[Chava]

It would make more sense if she'd mentioned it on encountering her punter between F&D/Thrawl Street, rather than wait until they were practically on the threshold of the Garden of Earthly Delights, at the entrance to Miller's Court.

Well, if the statement is true in that particular, she probably did say something while negotiating with Mr A along the reassuring lines of 'yes I have a private room and a bed. You'll get what you're paying for.' If Mr A is playing the prudent trick for Hutchinson's benefit and asking again whether they would in fact be alone and private for the duration as he pauses, quivering, on the threshold of Millers Court, I imagine she would say 'come along my dear, you will be comfortable'. I think it's highly likely that Hutchinson heard her say this or something very like it.

However I was always under the impression that Kelly had a beat of her own outside the 10 Bells. If that was the case, I could see other tarts taking a dim view of her recruiting in any other area. I tried to bring this up in another thread, but these women, all of them, seem to be operating in a world blissfully free of pimps, other territorial hookers and predatory gangs charging them 'protection'. And I have to say I think that is somewhat unlikely.

I'd also love to know if the police checked out Kelly before the late hours of that night. She's eaten fish and chips. She's been out on the piss. She must have been seen somewhere doing this stuff but we don't hear about it, even tho' she seems to be well-known in the area. Cox sees her with a cllent. Er...that's about it!

[Sam Flynn]

However I was always under the impression that Kelly had a beat of her own outside the 10 Bells.

That's possibly another myth, Chava. The only near-contemporary source for Kelly's "beat" was Walter Dew's memoirs, written 50 years after the event. Unless one takes "Commercial Street" as a loose reference to the Ten Bells, he doesn't mention it at all:

"Often I had seen her parading along Commercial Street, between Flower-and-Dean Street and Aldgate, or along Whitechapel Road."

Incidentally, quite how one was supposed to "parade" between F&D Street and Aldgate is beyond me - the two thoroughfares are a fair distance apart, and one would have to have crossed several other major thoroughfares (at an angle of more than 90 degrees!) to get from one to the other. Another example of why we should double-check police memoirs rather than take them at face value, methinks.

If that was the case, I could see other tarts taking a dim view of her recruiting in any other area.

I think there are dangers inherent in retro-fitting a "modern" view of prostitution on the sordid reality of life on the East End streets back then. We are dealing with desperate women in the main, not all of them on the game full-time, and whose clients were largely desperately poor men themselves. Quite how territorial these women needed to be under such circumstances is by no means clear.

It's also worth reflecting that Whitechapel/Spitalfields was not perhaps the "Red Light District" that one might imagine - that title might have been more accurately applied to Soho and Shepherd's Market, both of which were in the West End. Whilst there's no doubt that they existed, the number of "professional" pimps in Spitalfields might have been somewhat fewer than one might imagine.

[Ben]

In fact, if I were to select just one element out of Hutchinson's testimony that rung true, it would be the invitation of comfort offered to him by Mary Kelly.

I'd have to disagree, Gareth.

The alleged "invitation of comfort" strikes a very false note indeed. It would make sense in the context of a friend or acquaintance (in which case one could argue the case that she'd uttered those words to Hutchinson himself at some point), but when placed in the context of our fastidious Jewish dandy, it becomes too obvious what the author of the account wants the reader/listener to think: "Ooh, he must have money to stay that long, so not one of the proleteriat" and "Ooh, he must be staying there for a long time (hint, hint!)...he's probably still there when Kelly gets killed."

If I were to pick one aspect of Hutchinson's account that might be true, it would be his standing/waiting outside the court at 2:30am. The rest has all the hallkarks of an attempt at self-legitimization, and a clumsy one at that.

Cheers,
Ben

[Chava]

Sam, I take your point. And I was always a little leery of the 10 Bells! However we know for a fact that there were at least two gangs preying on prostitutes in the at the time--the Old Nichol Gang and the Hoxton Boys. It was gang members, I believe, who probably attacked Emma Smith, so they weren't ignoring the older, more indigent women. I understand that we can't look at the behaviour of current prostitutes and assume that the same thing went on in the East End. However from the inquest evidence, it does sound as if all of these women carried on their trade without any external concerns, and with respect I cannot believe that this is completely likely.

As for Hutchinson standing outside and waiting. I cannot come up with any sane explanation for his behaviour unless Kelly had a pre-existing friendly/passionate relationship with her. By his own admission, Kelly tried to hustle him for 6d. When he says he doesn't have any money, she moves on to try and get her money from someone else. She clearly feels she needs money, and he clearly knows she is a prostitute. So there is no reason at all to believe that, once she's finished with this guy, that she won't go out and try and find another. However many people explain his waiting in terms of his hoping to stay the night with her after she has finished with this trick. So he stands and waits--he has nowhere to sit--in a dank passageway on a cold night in the vain hope that a prostitute of his aquaintance will give him shelter (at least!) for free. He says he knows her but doesn't admit to a relationship. So what in hell is he thinking? I have no feeling either way as to his guilt but I cannot believe that part of his statement--not that I believe the rest either!

[paul emmett]

If Mr A is playing the prudent trick for Hutchinson's benefit

Hi Chava, I was struck by your phrasing, but I wasn't sure what was being suggested here. Why would Mr A do this?

Also, I was curious as to whether anyone was concerned with the discrepency between where Lewis saw the lurking man, and where Hutchinson said he lurked. If Hutchinson was covering his ass upon hearing Lewis's inquest statement, wouldn't he have just repeated her phrasings, "oppisite the Court, . . . by the Lodging House, . . . in the street, . . . ."?

[Chava]

Paul, I meant that Mr A, if he was the killer, was trying to look like a very circumspect and somewhat shy new client who has concerns about privacy, rather than a flashy roue who is used to picking up whores. Of course Mr A, if he existed, might well have been a very shy new client etc.

I agree with your comment about Hutchinson not echoing Lewis. But he may not have heard exactly what was said. All he may have known was that she saw someone hanging round.