Mary Kelly sighting

[Steve F]

Hi Folks
I've been mulling over the story of MJK being seen on the morning of 9th Nov when she was supposed to be already dead and it was reported that she indicated to the eye witness some vomit in the street and blamed it on drink.This led to some saying that what had happened was that she returned to MC & found the body of someone else murdered in her bed and it made her sick.This has always puzzeled me as surely most people on finding such a sight as the one in MC would be sick on the spot and would not have time to cover any distance before vomiting.
So on reflection I feel that the said witness got the wrong day
Any thoughts on this?
Steve

[Graham]

Hi Steve F,

Go to Feldman's book (page 386 in the paperback version) for a fuller description of what might (repeat, might) have happened, if you want to stretch your credibility to the limit.

But - in all things Ripper, one never knows...

Cheers,

Graham

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Steve,

Personally, my view is that if Maxwell was wrong she was guilty of mistaken identity. In other words: she got the wrong person rather than the wrong day.
I think it would be very difficult to get the wrong day since the morning in question was the morning of Lord Mayor's Day, with a lot of festivities.

She had only known Mary kelly - according to herself - a short period of time and during this period had only met her twice.

All the best

[Limehouse]

I think the witness got the wrong person too.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

Once again; I agree with you about mistaken identity.

Despite MJK being tall to be a woman of her time...

All the best
Jukka

[Steve F]

Hi Steve,

Personally, my view is that if Maxwell was wrong she was guilty of mistaken identity. In other words: she got the wrong person rather than the wrong day.
I think it would be very difficult to get the wrong day since the morning in question was the morning of Lord Mayor's Day, with a lot of festivities.

She had only known Mary kelly - according to herself - a short period of time and during this period had only met her twice.

All the best

Glenn
I'd forgotten about the Lord Mayors Day.Maybe Maxwell was befuddled by drink???

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Steve,

Quite possible. I would assume she wasn't alone in that, if that was he case.

All the best

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
The Maxwell debate has continued over the years, with the same old conclusions, ie, right person, wrong day, or suggestions that she simply jumped on the bandwagon for instant glory, and invented the whole scenerio, and even after intense questioning by H division, and inquest scruitiny,she still believed it of commercial intrest to continue falsifying an account , which she knew was untrue.
That I can not believe...
The crux of the matter, is The medical report was off track, and Mjk was alive up to the point, and beyond Maxwells last sighting.
Why, oh why. do we disregard witnesses, that were abundant during that autumn, with the attitude that they all were either lying , or mistaken.
How can we act god, in interpreting fact/fiction?
Regards Richard.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

We disregard some witnesses, Richard, because witnesses often are NOT reliable. This is true facts for anyone who have expereince in studying or investigating criminal cases.
That witnesses are totally firm in their beliefs and still in the end have proven to be inaccurate is unfortunately a common reality.

You, on the other hand, believe ALL witnesses and ALL newspaper reports, no matter what they say.

And how do you know that the medical report was off track? Which one do you mean? Bonds or Phillips?
Bond actually came quite close to the estmated time of the alleged cries of 'Murder'.

All the best

[DVV]

The crux of the matter, is The medical report was off track, and Mjk was alive up to the point, and beyond Maxwells last sighting.
Why, oh why. do we disregard witnesses, that were abundant during that autumn, with the attitude that they all were either lying , or mistaken.
How can we act god, in interpreting fact/fiction?
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard,
I'm afraid you would be forced to disregard a witness: Maurice Lewis - unless you believe both Maxwell and Lewis to be reliable.

Amitiés,
David

[richardnunweek]

Hi Glenn,
I simply do not believe, every single newspaper account put before me, that is unfair to my intelligence/ knowledge of this case.
I have stated many times, that I judge a witness by the credibility of statement made by that witness at the time of questioning, taking into account verbal phrases, that tend to point to truthfullness.
That is all I can do as a person that was born some some 59 years after the event.
My sole aim, is hopefully we will collectively make sense of these murders during our lifetimes, the trouble is hopefuuly sooner/later[ in my case]
Regards Richard.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Richard,

It was a done deal that the Millers Court victim died in the early hours of Friday, 9th November. If not, explain Abberline's wunderkind—post-inquest witness George Hutchinson.

The police took Caroline Maxwell's "contradictory" statement on 9th November. She said Kelly was still alive at 8.30 to 9.00 am, which tends to exonerate the subsequent Mister Astrakahn. So the important question is why her evidence was allowed to be heard at the inquest on Monday 12th November.

Bagster Phillips offering his medical opinion that MJK [or whomever] died in the early hours of Friday morning would have blown Maxwell's testimony out of the water, revealing her to be mistaken/deluded/lying. Exit witness with tail between her legs.

But Bagster Phillips remained oddly silent about the victim's time of death. And the coroner did not solicit his medical opinion. Strange behaviour at an inquest.

Doctor Bond's post-mortem opinion did not enter the public domain. So, as far as the inquest/public/newspapers were concerned, the victim's time of death was left wide open. The victim could have died/been murdered at any time up until 10.45 am.

Yet nobody asked the obvious question.

It was a neat piece of official obfuscation.

Regards,

Simon

[Elias]

If someone can give a plausible reason why MJK would've been hanging around her local on the morning of the murder if she had something to do with it, I'll give it a bit more credence. I'm yet to hear one.

On the subject of dismissing Maxwell's account - much more plausible to dismiss the one witness called to the inquest who claimed to have seen her that morning, than the much larger collection of evidence submitted from other witnesses and doctors that suggested she died earlier than the Maxwell sighting.

[sdreid]

Some party was lying or mistaken in the Kelly matter. The question is, was it Bond, Barnett or Maxwell?

[DVV]

Hi Sdreid,
why should Bond have lied?
And Barnett - about what?
And Maxwell?
Mistakes are possible, of course.
But I can't see no Gordian knot here.

Amitiés,
David