Who was Julia?!

[Chava]

Thanks for all the reasons she was called Black Mary! Unfortunately I'm not buying any of 'em! Are we sure she had long fair hair, or is this just that all young victims have long golden locks? I remember the discussion on how Barnett recognized Mary--from her ear--which I thought was a mis-hear for 'hair' but turned out not to be. If she really did have striking long fair hair, I think she would have been easy to identify by that.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

I remember reading from somewhere also about the following thing; "Black Mary" was her nickname, because she used to wear a black overcoat!

One has to remember, though; Mary was the most common Irish girl's first-name and according to the 1891 census Kelly wast the second most common last-name in Ireland. So, it is very, very obvious, that there were many other Mary Kellies in the East End besides "ours".

Tracking down the Mary Kelly could-have-beens has underlined this factor. Many of us has tried to catch the real one, with no definite match yet...

All the best
Jukka

[Pippin Joan]

I remember the discussion on how Barnett recognized Mary--from her ear--which I thought was a mis-hear for 'hair' but turned out not to be. If she really did have striking long fair hair, I think she would have been easy to identify by that.

I was interested to read your comment, Chava! I remember reading that testimony from Barnett, and it seemed so much more likely to me that he would recognize his own girlfriend, minus her face, by her hair, not her ear. As you saying he did mean to say ear? How did you come across that? It seems so odd to identify a loved one in her own bed by her ear. Where was that story that someone else with similar light hair was killed, and identified as Kelly?

I think I'd go with the 'black moods' as the source of her moniker.

[Chava]

I remember reading that testimony from Barnett, and it seemed so much more likely to me that he would recognize his own girlfriend, minus her face, by her hair, not her ear.

That's what I thought! But someone posted a pic of the exact page from the statement and he clearly said 'ear'. Unless the guy taking the statement screwed-up and misheard, that's what he said. If I recall the discussion correctly, Kelly had something unique about the shape of her ears. It's on the Kelly threads somewhere. I still think she would have been even more identifiable by a mane of lovely hair, which is why I think she may not have been the gorgeous blonde so drooled-over by some people on this board and in other places. (Check out Which Actress Should Play Kelly for a drool-fest!) I suspect she was tallish, heavy-ish, blonde-ish maybe, and not outstandingly good-looking.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Chava!

Well, here is an wxact quote from the victim introduction of this site:

""Mary Jane Kelly was approximately 25 years old at the time of her death which would place her birth around 1863. She was 5' 7" tall and stout. She had blonde hair, blue eyes and a fair complexion. "Said to have been possessed of considerable personal attractions." (McNaughten)

She was last seen wearing a linsey frock and a red shawl pulled around her shoulders. She was bare headed. Detective Constable Walter Dew claimed to know Kelly well by sight and says that she was attractive and paraded around, usually in the company of two or three friends. He says she always wore a spotlessly clean white apron."

But one can always think, that people thought her to be attaractive to be that kind of girl!

All the best
Jukka

[claire]

Well, at the least, the death scene photo indicates that Miss Kelly had long hair, and from the limbs alone we can see that she wasn't exactly stout (her arms are slender and the wrist bone is clearly visible under the skin). Hard to tell from black and white but I'd bet on strawberry blonde (or, at least, red henna over blonde) from comparisons with known colours around (red, dark red, white, dark brown).

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Claire!

Yes, you're right, the limbs and especially the arm don't indicate MJK being very stout...

But maybe stout in this context meant the same as busty?!

All the best
Jukka

[Carrotty Nell]

Yes, but that was AFTER our boy had worked on her. He had been inter alia carving off the flesh from the thighs and the abdomen. Dew specifically refers to what he saw on the bed as 'nothing more than a skeleton, all that was left of a buxom and attractive young woman' (probably not the exact wording but something to that effect). Dew's wording therefore suggests that she was a well-rounded lady (the euphemism I prefer being one myself - I told a poster off for calling Tabram 'hefty') denuded quite pitifully to a mere skeleton by the killer.

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Carrotty Nell!

Yes, her bones are very visible on the photo.

But the parts marked with red are pretty in tact, aren't they?!

All the best
Jukka

[The Grave Maurice]

Who was Julia? what is she,
That all our swains commend her?
Holy, fair and wise is she;
The heaven such grace did lend her,
That she might admired be.

Wait a mo...that was Silvia.
Sorry, wrong thread.

[Chava]

Sounds like Kelly had two women who occasionally stayed with her, and there may have been more, as per Barnett's statement about her having loose women staying in the room. So the Ripper was actually taking a fairly big chance with her. Especially since he probably stayed in her room for quite a while, messing about with all her bits and bobs. If another woman had been staying there that night, and had wandered in, it would have been all up with him. He might have managed to get out of the court, but I doubt he would have gotten out of the street. He's either very lucky,very foolhardy, or he's been stalking her and knows that she's alone that night. He might have asked her as he went in if she lived alone. But if I were him I wouldn't trust her answer. He might leave if she said she had someone staying, and she needs the money.

[Roy Corduroy]

From Post #8 this thread-

This is who I think Julia was. The woman Mrs Maxwell saw. ...

Nell, you could just be right.

Roy