So was she really Irish or Welsh?

[Graham]

How do you know who I say I am?

Let me count the ways.

I can offer you [a] my birth certificate, [b] marriage certificate, [c] driving license, [d] tax returns, [e] US Immigration file, plus a ton of other stuff [some with an ugly photograph].

And if that's not enough to convince you who I am, why are you so eager to accept that Elizabeth Stride was Swedish on the basis of no evidence at all?

Simon,

I'll PM you with my address and you can forward all that i.d. information to me, and I'll give you my answer in due course....

...I honestly feel that enough is known of Stride's background to at least support the fact that she came from Sweden.

Cheers,

Graham

[Simon Wood]

Hi Sam,

I wrote you a reply, but the moronic Casebook interface crapped out and swallowed it before I could push the GO button.

Anyway, know that I disagreed with you.

Regards,

Simon

[Sam Flynn]

Anyway, know that I disagreed with you.

Know that I wouldn't have expected you to, Simon

[perrymason]

Hello all,

I believe what "Simon says" is applicable to a great deal of information we have read about these cases, a lot is assumptive and without any tangible proof.

On Mary, it is known that members of Parliment and The Royal Irish Constabulary and a Senior Post Office offical visited Mary Kellys room the beginning of the week after her murder.

None really have any official role to play there, and The Royal Irish Constabulary has no business being there based on what we know,... so many just "assume" they were curious. I dont, and I wonder if this related to her possible heritage, or a man they thought might be her killer?

Best regards all.

[Graham]

What I sometimes find a little surprising, given the circumstances, is how much we do know about the victims and suspects in the Whitechapel Murders. A lot of this (obviously) is via police and other legal records, newspapers, family memory, etc.

When I tried to find information on my paternal grandfather, I drew an absolute and total blank - not that I'm a dab-hand at genealogy (far from it) but I discovered nothing whatsoever about him. Which leads me to think that the name he went under wasn't his real one - shades of MJK. Without some kind of genuine, factual, recorded knowledge (and how do you determine if your particular bit of knowledge is genuine or not?) you really are buggered.

However, I'm still prepared to accept that Stride was Swedish.

Cheers,

Graham

[Sam Flynn]

None really have any official role to play there, and The Royal Irish Constabulary has no business being there based on what we know,... so many just "assume" they were curious. I dont, and I wonder if this related to her possible heritage, or a man they thought might be her killer?

More likely her heritage, if anything, Mike. At least, that'd be the only bit of relevance to this discussion thread!

If it was thought that Kelly was of Irish ancestry, and the police were having trouble tracking down her family, then it's conceivable that the Irish constabulary might have been invited to help out.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Sam,

"If it was thought that Kelly was of Irish ancestry, and the police were having trouble tracking down her family, then it's conceivable that the Irish constabulary might have been invited to help out."

That's a giant leap forward for you, a person who has always maintained that the RIC at Millers Court on Monday 12th November were nothing more than rubberneckers.

Regards,

Simon

[perrymason]

Hi again,

I appreciate your answer Sam, thanks....because its one of the few plausible ones... in my opinion. As a tangential issue, I wonder how many people of Irish decent living in the East End at that time would have denied that they were Irish. It seems to me that the Irish self rule factions were of particular concern to the local authorities and at the time of these murders a plan to assassinate Lord Balfour by Fenians is reaching a climax.

In Marys case, I wonder if what she told Barnett, or what he said she said, reflects that climate in some ways.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

"If it was thought that Kelly was of Irish ancestry, and the police were having trouble tracking down her family, then it's conceivable that the Irish constabulary might have been invited to help out."

That's a giant leap forward for you, a person who has always maintained that the RIC at Millers Court on Monday 12th November were nothing more than rubberneckers.

I still think they were rubber-necking, Simon. However, the only other explanation I find compelling is that the RIC had been asked to help trace any next-of-kin in Ireland.

[perrymason]

....another brief thought,....Fred Abberline made his reputation by uncovering Fenians in the East End, and made some high profile arrests that led to his rapid rise. Maybe he is one of the local authorities that could be considered somewhat of an expert on the local networks and key individuals within the movement at that time....and that might figure into his second visit to Millers Court Saturday morning, with Reid and others, re-sifting the ashes.

Is it possible that Marys heritage was believed to be Irish by the police themselves...not just based on Barnetts version of her life. She was arrested as recently as late that same spring, fall...so they might have investigated her a bit then.

And as recently pointed out to me, an Irishman was arrested in Belfast for suspicion of being involved in these murders.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

Thank goodness the Welsh nationalist fire-bombing campaign didn't start until the 1970s, otherwise any discussion of Kelly's genealogy would splinter into multiple strands before we got off the first page

[perrymason]

Hi Sam,

Aside from my annecdotes, my point was that perhaps the police knew of an Irish connection to Mary Kelly which may in some ways validate that part of the story that Barnett tells later.

Like maybe she was investigated when arrested, or that Abberline knew of her or friends of hers via his Fenian work over the years.

Suggesting that she indeed had known Irish roots perhaps.

All the best.

[The Good Michael]

I suspect, as many ex-pats, Kelly was Irish by birth, felt Irish (whatever that meant), conjured up images of paradise when she thought about her childhood there, but would never want to go back there. She was too British now to consider it.

Mike

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

This discussion has taken some interesting turns.

First of all, Simon Wood:

"Mistä tiedät, että olenko minä suomalainen?" (Ha-ha, this is a test without a translation! )

What it comes to Stride's non-Swedishness, I'd like to see the definite facts denying that. OK, I hope, att Glenn vill delta i den här debatten!

Perrymason, had they known anything definite about MJK, she would be just another victim - without her mystical aura - on these boards, would'nt she?!

All the best
Jukka

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jukka,

En tiedä, onko sinulla kotoisin Suomi.

Onnea.

Simon