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What most Kelly "Groupies" seem to forget and/or ignore...

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  • What most Kelly "Groupies" seem to forget and/or ignore...

    Hi, everyone, I'm Evgueni, long time reader, first time poster. Hope to contribute to some interesting discussions. I first got interested in the Ripper after seeing the Michael Caine mini-series as five year old child in Russia... It was one the films that most seriously affected me as a child. however, I haven't really rusted my interest in the Autumn of Terror until recently. Well, anyway, as I was saying, I find it odd that most people who gush so much about Mary Kelly, don't seem to realize that being 25 in 1888 is NOT the same as being 25 these days, especially for someone living in Whitechapel in those days! It a time and place where the average life expectancy was less than fifty years, Mary Kelly, if she was truthful about her age, would have already looked haggared, aged and unclean. She would have probably looked like the equivalent of today's fifty year old welfare hag. Or am I wrong?
    What's all this then?

  • #2
    Yep, you are wrong. Ageing affects different people in different ways, one Ripper victim, at least, is described as looking younger than her years so it would be on the toss of a coin. The few loose descriptions we have of Kelly do actually seem to indicate that she was 'pretty'.
    protohistorian-Where would we be without Stewart Evans or Paul Begg,Kieth Skinner, Martin Fido,or Donald Rumbelow?

    Sox-Knee deep in Princes & Painters with Fenian ties who did not mutilate the women at the scene, but waited with baited breath outside the mortuary to carry out their evil plots before rushing home for tea with the wife...who would later poison them of course

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    • #3
      Hi Evgueni-

      Yes I think you may be wrong in many ways- The very fact that the papers of the day chose to comment on our Mary's looks was more than likely because a)she was younger
      b) she was disposed of indoors
      c) allegedly 'prettier'
      d) the matter and manner of the 'er 'disposal'!!

      Let's be honest it was a totally appalling crime scene- even today !!

      Murders OK can be worse I know - but Mary's situation is quite unique,in many ,many ways.

      Suzi x

      As to age- It was said that Polly looked younger than her age and to be honest an approximation of age in the LVP can only be assured by looking up birth/death certificates-which in itself is another game in itself!!!!

      Exactly Sox!!!- Blimey the appearance of many a 'wanderer' in Spitalfields at the time could be reckoned by a witness - anything between 25-45!!! - Lets be honest it depends on many things-

      What time of day they saw them!!!/ How long they'd known 'em/ and what manner of clothes the poor souls had thrown together to put on-maybe to look a tad sprightly- when they were seen!!..Bonnet-'jolly' or not may have taken a few years off I 'spose!!- But it didn't pay the rent!!!
      Last edited by Suzi; 07-12-2008, 04:43 PM.
      'Would you like to see my African curiosities?'

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      • #4
        Hello Evgueni!

        And welcome aboard...

        Well, the other posters have said almost everything there is to say about her outlook!

        Indeed, the descriptions tell her to have been attractive and pretty. But in a sense you are correct; the ideal of beauty was different then!

        Once again, this theme will start there; some describe her being buxom and some people stout...

        My personal impression is, that when arriving to the East End she was just "buxom" and after heavy drinking here she had become stout... On the other hand, she doesn't seem to have a stout body-structure!

        All the best
        Jukka
        "When I know all about everything, I am old. And it's a very, very long way to go!"

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        • #5
          Hi Jukka-

          I Love your visions of buxom and stout!!!...Put it down to Guinness and a good Bra!!!
          Seriously though looking at the arms and what's left of the leg! she doesnt look that 'portly'....another word!! a bit jowly maybe but that's about it!!


          Suz x
          Last edited by Suzi; 07-12-2008, 05:25 PM.
          'Would you like to see my African curiosities?'

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          • #6
            Well, them I guess I stand corrected. Still, I imagine that the real Mary Kelly would not have been as radiant, clean and fresh faced as people would like to believe.
            What's all this then?

            Comment


            • #7
              Hello Evgueni!

              Of course not; after probably being a kind of drop-out from a working-class/lower middle-class family, walking in drags and living with her **** for four years, at least after that she wasn't that radiant!

              That isn't only the case with MJK, though; my Irish friend noticed, that we arts people on these boards tend to make all the C5 look like before their East End days!

              But's that human nature, I gues...

              All the best
              Jukka
              "When I know all about everything, I am old. And it's a very, very long way to go!"

              Comment


              • #8
                Good God Evgueni!!
                Now matter how potentally 'attractive' MJK was alleged to have been- spending weeks/months in that room and that area with no place to have a bath probably monthly -let alone daily would have taken it's toll -Grubby would be optimistic!!!

                Now think- the luxuries we refer to as deoderants/soap etc were a luxury (ref Annie C and her fight over a scrap of soap!) -Can you imagine what they'd have done with a spanking new towel!!!!!!!!!!!- Pawned it probably!!!

                At the end of the day imagine how hard we try we'll never get there!!! (At least outside of the 3rd world!!!)

                Look- these women were totally filthy,crawling with lice and the rest -but did their best to look presentable [ new bonnets/shawls /aprons (clean) ....from whatever source!!!!] etc...At the end of the day- They didn't put themselves in this position in life by choice a lot of the time!!! (But the comments from the husbands are strangely all the same...she was in drink-may say something about the husbands!!) They got themselves up the best they could to go out for their 4d!!

                ANYWAY..............
                They tried....
                ...Hence the pockets containing all sorts of life support and of course combs,the odd mitten, etc and little bits of mirror found about their person...That's before we get into the pieces of 'rag' etc' aagh--- They did their best!!!

                Blessem

                I have nothing but sympathy for the 'girls'... there but the grace etc etc go we..... Sorry that was a bit of a rant!!!
                Last edited by Suzi; 07-12-2008, 06:48 PM.
                'Would you like to see my African curiosities?'

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Suzi View Post
                  Good God Evgueni!!
                  Now matter how potentally 'attractive' MJK was alleged to have been- spending weeks/months in that room and that area with no place to have a bath probably monthly -let alone daily would have taken it's toll -Grubby would be optimistic!!!

                  Now think- the luxuries we refer to as deoderants/soap etc were a luxury (ref Annie C and her fight over a scrap of soap!) -Can you imagine what they'd have done with a spanking new towel!!!!!!!!!!!- Pawned it probably!!!

                  At the end of the day imagine how hard we try we'll never get there!!! (At least outside of the 3rd world!!!)

                  Look these women were totally filthy,crawling with lice and the rest -but did their best to look presentable [ new bonnets/shawls /aprons (clean) ....from whatever source!!!!] etc...At the end of the day- They didn't put themselves in this position in life by choice a lot of the time!!! (But the comments from the husbands are strangely all the same...she was in drink-may say something about the husbands!!)

                  ANYWAY..............
                  They tried....
                  ...Hence the pockets containing all sorts of life support and of course combs,the odd mitten, etc and little bits of mirror found about their person...That's before we get into the pieces of 'rag' etc' aagh--- They did their best!!!

                  Blessem

                  I have nothing but sympathy for the 'girls'... there but the grace etc etc go we..... Sorry that was a bit of a rant!!!
                  LOL, relax, Suzi, I'm on your side! But, still, you got to admit that having Lysette Anthony and Heather Graham cavort around in silk dresses, neat clean hair-dos and with a rosy skin complexion to boot is a bit... Well... Naive and silly.
                  What's all this then?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by emlodik View Post
                    LOL, relax, Suzi, I'm on your side! But, still, you got to admit that having Lysette Anthony and Heather Graham cavort around in silk dresses, neat clean hair-dos and with a rosy skin complexion to boot is a bit... Well... Naive and silly.
                    Totally relaxed here...the portrayal of the 'girls' a la Heather Graham etc etc etc are totally ridiculous though and do get me going ....at the end of the day they're images of what people imagine and do nothing apart from exacerbating the Top Hat/ Mist/Fog and Ello Darlin image of Jack............Sad........ but true in some of the public's opinion....sigh

                    Anyway chaps----------where were we Evgueni??? xxxxxxxxxx

                    Mind you Susan George was good as Kate!!! -wrong colour hair but I forgive her!!!!
                    Last edited by Suzi; 07-12-2008, 07:03 PM.
                    'Would you like to see my African curiosities?'

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hello Evgueni!

                      Originally posted by emlodik View Post
                      LOL, relax, Suzi, I'm on your side! But, still, you got to admit that having Lysette Anthony and Heather Graham cavort around in silk dresses, neat clean hair-dos and with a rosy skin complexion to boot is a bit... Well... Naive and silly.
                      Well, probably all of us think that way, more or less!

                      I am wondering now, that how many dramatizations I have seen about Oliwer Twist, where he is really dressed in rags!

                      All the best
                      Jukka
                      "When I know all about everything, I am old. And it's a very, very long way to go!"

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                      • #12
                        .
                        What's all this then?

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                        • #13
                          Bullseye!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                          'Would you like to see my African curiosities?'

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                          • #14
                            Heh... Susan George would have been great were it not for her ridiculously glamourous and clean wardrobe. But still, my favorite... Ahem... "Interpretion" of the victim was that of Susan Lynch as Elizabeth Stride in the 2001 film! They turned poor Swedish Lizzie into a raging Cockney bulldyke with sexual predator tendencies... And the outfit she wor in the film apparently did nothing to compliment what the real Liz Stride was claimed to have been wearing on the night of her murder. You know, Suzi, I really want to write a historically accurate dramatic screenplay for my screenwriting class this fall about these five tragic women and the events surrounding their murders and the aftermath, but I need help from a seasoned Ripperologist to aid me with various historical nuances and the dialects and/or the choice of words the characters would have used at the time. I wonder if there's anyone on these boards who would like to offer their help...
                            What's all this then?

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                            • #15
                              Hi Evgueni

                              Susan G was just a passing comment and of course not the actual image of Kate-although she did have something about her-

                              - If you wish to cast the women who were the victims of someone called Jack the Ripper look for actresses or just women who can act who look - or shall we say normal,who would have fitted in in the streets of the LVP Spitalfields

                              We're not looking at 'glamour pusses' here in any shape or form- just women who may fit the face/body shape and who can drop dead at the drop of a hat!!!

                              To be honest they're not about to speak any memorable lines are they....well apart from the ocassional Aaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!!!

                              Hee he

                              Just get the settings right and you may be onto a winner!!
                              AND I'm sure there are many people here who would give you a hand/advice!!!

                              As to dialect etc no problem at all mi old c***

                              Suzi
                              Last edited by Suzi; 07-12-2008, 08:24 PM.
                              'Would you like to see my African curiosities?'

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