Help On Some Details

[Sunny Delight]

a well reasoned post and I pretty much agree with all of it, except hutch being an honest witness.

I am loathe to dismiss Hutchinson when so little is known about him. I know the Star claimed his story became of reduced importance but that is all we hear. The Star were not exactly the most accurate paper and Scotland Yard was notoriously reticent in this case. Therefore to me dismissing Hutchinson is a stab in the dark. We don't know who he was so can't judge his merits as a truthful witness as much as we like. The best we have to go on is Abberline. He believed him. That is good enough for me in this case until more is known on Hutch or an official document clears it up one way or another.

[c.d.]

"The best we have to go on is Abberline. He believed him. That is good enough for me in this case until more is known on Hutch or an official document clears it up one way or another."


Hello Sunny,

I would qualify that by saying that it appears Abberline believed him initially. We don't know if Abberline subsequently changed his mind.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Britannia Man.

Would a man so conspicuous by his actions of openly accosting women for their way of living really be capable of being swift, deft and silent while killing before slipping back into the shadows?


To me, he sounds more like a spurned punter who's a bit pissed and aggy and so taken it out on a couple of women as he passes through the area. It's not unusual to occasionally come across or be passed by that type of bloke on a night out. To then switch to being a calm, skilled and accomplished killer without drawing attention to himself just before or just after with his agrivated behaviour doesn't seem to quite fit.

I often wonder if the persona of Jack the Ripper has not unduly, taken on this aura of a super sleuth, completely unwarranted.

This killer had to walk the streets in full view of everyone. He was seen, he was even likely known, but for one reason or another he was not an obvious suspect.

[Wickerman]

No, I prefer facts to someones opinion on what a few minutes could mean.

Well, here's one fact you can take to the bank. The times given that you choose to construct your theory around are nothing more than estimates, with plenty of room for adjustment.

[Sunny Delight]

Well, here's one fact you can take to the bank. The times given that you choose to construct your theory around are nothing more than estimates, with plenty of room for adjustment.

It astounds me how people take the timings of the day as Gospel. Even now with our personal watches and mobile phones witnesses end up giving estimates. I think anyone not wearing a time piece in Whitechapel in 1888 would probably give an estimate with a margin of error quite large. Practically ever answer at the inquests regarding time included the word 'about'.

[Wickerman]

In that regard the two other suspects Blotchy and Astrachan man seem to fair little better to Brittania man. Blotchy is seen enter Mary Kellys room by a witness who gives a description of him whilst Aman is seen and followed by Hutchinson who also hears him speak and offers a very detailed description of him. Unless you fancy that someone else unknown to us was responsible?

And that will always be the wild card in this case.

[Sam Flynn]

Unless you fancy that someone else unknown to us was responsible?

And that will always be the wild card in this case.

Personally, I think it's as likely an option as any.

[Sunny Delight]

"The best we have to go on is Abberline. He believed him. That is good enough for me in this case until more is known on Hutch or an official document clears it up one way or another."


Hello Sunny,

I would qualify that by saying that it appears Abberline believed him initially. We don't know if Abberline subsequently changed his mind.

c.d.

Hello c.d, yes precisely my point. We have nothing else to go on. Abberline believed him. Whether he changed his mind or found that Hutchinson had fabricated the whole thing we don't know. So dismissing him is really just a stab in the dark.

[Wickerman]

I would qualify that by saying that it appears Abberline believed him initially. We don't know if Abberline subsequently changed his mind.

c.d.

Hi c.d.
We don't know if he did, like we don't know if he didn't.

We do read the force was still looking for both the Hutchinson suspect & the Cox suspect on the 19th, a good week after Abberline interviewed him.

[Curious Cat]

In terms of suspects...

If you believe Hutchinson's version of events, it rules out Blotchy.

If you don't believe Hutchinson's version of events, it rules out Astrachan man.

Do either Blotchy or Astrachan man have any crossover descriptions to Britannia Man?

Do any of these men have any crossover descriptions with the man seen loitering across from Miller's Court?



There are 4 men - or 5 if you count the one in the couple Sarah Lewis saw. After the inquest only one - Hutchinson - brings himself foward and puts himself in the location around the same time Sarah Lewis was there. The other men remain unaccounted for.

Hutchinson tops and tails Sarah Lewis' account. She saw a non-hatted woman talking to the man she'd previous seen in Bethnal Green by a pub in Commercial Street...Hutchinson watches Mary Kelly talking to Astrachan man by a pub in Commercial Street. Sarah Lewis sees a couple going into Miller's Court...Hutchinson watches an unhatted Mary Kelly and Astrachan man go into Miller's Court. Sarah Lewis sees a man hanging around opposite the entrance to Miller's Court...Hutchinson says he waited for some 45 minutes opposite the entrance to Miller's Court.


Hutchinson doesn't appear to describe the same man Sarah Lewis saw.

[Abby Normal]

In terms of suspects...

If you believe Hutchinson's version of events, it rules out Blotchy.

If you don't believe Hutchinson's version of events, it rules out Astrachan man.

Do either Blotchy or Astrachan man have any crossover descriptions to Britannia Man?

Do any of these men have any crossover descriptions with the man seen loitering across from Miller's Court?



There are 4 men - or 5 if you count the one in the couple Sarah Lewis saw. After the inquest only one - Hutchinson - brings himself foward and puts himself in the location around the same time Sarah Lewis was there. The other men remain unaccounted for.

Hutchinson tops and tails Sarah Lewis' account. She saw a non-hatted woman talking to the man she'd previous seen in Bethnal Green by a pub in Commercial Street...Hutchinson watches Mary Kelly talking to Astrachan man by a pub in Commercial Street. Sarah Lewis sees a couple going into Miller's Court...Hutchinson watches an unhatted Mary Kelly and Astrachan man go into Miller's Court. Sarah Lewis sees a man hanging around opposite the entrance to Miller's Court...Hutchinson says he waited for some 45 minutes opposite the entrance to Miller's Court.


Hutchinson doesn't appear to describe the same man Sarah Lewis saw.

Hi curious
I pretty much rule out hutch being honest. Which rules in blotchy and the bethnal green botherer. And hutch of course.

[Michael W Richards]

I am loathe to dismiss Hutchinson when so little is known about him. I know the Star claimed his story became of reduced importance but that is all we hear. The Star were not exactly the most accurate paper and Scotland Yard was notoriously reticent in this case. Therefore to me dismissing Hutchinson is a stab in the dark. We don't know who he was so can't judge his merits as a truthful witness as much as we like. The best we have to go on is Abberline. He believed him. That is good enough for me in this case until more is known on Hutch or an official document clears it up one way or another.

Abberline also stated he believed Israel Schwartz, which makes him zero for 2 on picking witnesses that have Inquest value. Granted, that boat had sailed when Hutch waits 4 days to come forward to help with his "friends" murder investigation.

[Simon Wood]

I rule out George Hutchinson even existing.

Mr. Astrakhan was an imaginative exercise in deflection.

Small wonder Abberline kept his mouth shut for the last 26 years of his life.

[seanr]

Sarah Lewis sees a couple going into Miller's Court...

Just a quick point, as I've only just noted it but in the Telegraph coverage of the inquest Sarah Lewis is recorded as saying:

'The man was looking up the court; he seemed to be waiting or looking for some one. Further on there was a man and woman - the later being in drink. There was nobody in the court.' - https://www.casebook.org/official_do...est_kelly.html

Seems to rule out Lewis' couple being anywhere other than in Dorset Street.

[c.d.]

Hi c.d.
We don't know if he did, like we don't know if he didn't.

We do read the force was still looking for both the Hutchinson suspect & the Cox suspect on the 19th, a good week after Abberline interviewed him.

Hello Wick,

There are also degrees of belief. It can run the gamut and doesn't necessarily have to be all or nothing.

c.d.