Help On Some Details

[seanr]

<snip>
Bowyer was in the court, Hutchinson was in Dorset street, out of sight of each other.
<snip>

Bowyer lived at 37 Dorset Street, so presumably had to pass through Dorset Street to enter the court?

[Sunny Delight]

Lewis did not know Mary Kelly, she said that in her police statement - " I did not know the deceased."
So in her mind this couple are just strangers to her; and the loiterer, another stranger, is unrelated to this couple.
There's no cause for her to think otherwise.

Lewis, and the coroner, were more interested in the weirdo accosting women, and him standing outside the Britannia around the critical time.

First time poster. I enjoy your posts a lot Wickerman they always give me food for thought. I have a problem with the Lewis seeing Astrackhan man and Kelly pass up the passage before seeing Hutchinson narrative. It is this. If as you say Lewis is walking behind the couple who are in the distance how can we account for Hutchinson claiming AK man and Kelly stood for three minutes at the corner of the court before going up it? However by another token why did Hutchinson omit this couple from his testimony if they passed along Dorset street? It is so hard to make sense of. I do agree though Britannia man is an interesting character who could well be our guy(although one who it appears preferred approaching women in pairs). For what it is worth as well I believe George Hutchinson. I think he was telling the truth. I see no reason for him to lie. Nonsense like hearing what Lewis had said at the inquest won't cut it. He tells the press he spoke to a lodger about his experience and he told him to go to the Police which he did. Why he didn't appear beforehand will never be known but the Police were satisfied with his reasons so I am as well. People often talk about why the Ripper stopped. I thnk he might have done because Hutchinson had clocked him at tue market on the Sunday morning. Now Hutchinson was accompanying detectives looking for him whilst for months after the place is saturated with Police. By March things had begun to be scaled down and when the Ripper felt secure enough he re-emerged to kill Alice McKenzie. Sorry I am off on a tangent.................

[Wickerman]

Food and drink are obviously reasonable expenses, although money must've also been spent on these in the months before without falling behind on the rent. Would she have been in danger of eviction had she not been able to pay McCarthy the rent money for a third week running?

Please bear in mind, we only have McCarthy's word that she was so far in arrears. McCarthy was a bit of an underworld figure who just might see an opportunity to make some money from any relatives coming to her funeral.
It was customary for relatives to make good on any debts of a deceased family member.
Maybe, the debt was genuine.
Maybe, she was in a little debt, but McCarthy hiked it up.
Or worse, maybe she wasn't in debt at all.
I don't see anywhere that Barnett comments on or even acknowledges this debt.
It could be true, I'm just saying don't make it the foundation for any theory.

[Wickerman]

Bowyer lived at 37 Dorset Street, so presumably had to pass through Dorset Street to enter the court?

Bowyer worked at No. 27, the McCarthy's. He was a bit of an odd job man.

[seanr]

Bowyer worked at No. 27, the McCarthy's. He was a bit of an odd job man.

What leads you to think he was working at 3am when fetching water? We know he was still or back on duty by 10:45am the next morning?

[Sam Flynn]

I don't see anywhere that Barnett comments on or even acknowledges this debt.

There is indirect support, perhaps. Barnett's having lost his job, his being unemployed for 4 months, and his visiting Mary the day before the rent was due only to say that he had no money to give her, are fully consistent with her being in debt.

[Wickerman]

First time poster. I enjoy your posts a lot Wickerman they always give me food for thought.

Thats very kind of you, welcome to the boards.

I have a problem with the Lewis seeing Astrackhan man and Kelly pass up the passage before seeing Hutchinson narrative. It is this. If as you say Lewis is walking behind the couple who are in the distance how can we account for Hutchinson claiming AK man and Kelly stood for three minutes at the corner of the court before going up it?

In my view Lewis was on the same side of Dorset street, approaching Millers Court from behind this couple. I don't mean Lewis was following in their footsteps. She was coming along behind them, so they could have been stood at the entrance of the court for a short time (Hutchinson didn't have a watch, so his "3 mins" is an approximation).

However by another token why did Hutchinson omit this couple from his testimony if they passed along Dorset street?

Correct, if Lewis's couple is another couple entirely (not Astrachan & Kelly) then where are they in her narrative, or where is this "Lewis's couple" in Hutchinson's narrative?

That said, I don't have a problem with omissions, I don't expect either Hutch or Lewis to provide a list of people they see. After all, Lewis is only replying to specific questions at the inquest, not telling a continuous story. And Hutch was only interested in Kelly with Astrachan, and any other potential male suspects, not women passing up and down the street (like Lewis).

For what it is worth as well I believe George Hutchinson. I think he was telling the truth. I see no reason for him to lie. Nonsense like hearing what Lewis had said at the inquest won't cut it. He tells the press he spoke to a lodger about his experience and he told him to go to the Police which he did. Why he didn't appear beforehand will never be known but the Police were satisfied with his reasons so I am as well.

Well said, there is clearly no need for much of the complicated interpretations to try make Hutchinson out to be a liar.

People often talk about why the Ripper stopped. I thnk he might have done because Hutchinson had clocked him at tue market on the Sunday morning. Now Hutchinson was accompanying detectives looking for him whilst for months after the place is saturated with Police. By March things had begun to be scaled down and when the Ripper felt secure enough he re-emerged to kill Alice McKenzie. Sorry I am off on a tangent.................

Not at all, sometimes going off on a tangent helps to clarify the reason for your thinking. I mean, not everyone is convinced McKenzie was a Ripper victim.
I might add, I do not think Astrachan was the killer, but I do see the man outside the Britannia as a very viable Person of Interest.

As for later crimes; Mylett, McKenzie & Coles - I just don't know. Though I do agree with Dr Brownfield (Mylett case) when he suggests the Ripper may have used a garrott before the knife.
Now I'm going off on a tangent....

[Wickerman]

What leads you to think he was working at 3am when fetching water? We know he was still or back on duty by 10:45am the next morning?

He said so...

"..Bowyer, the young man in Mr. McCarthy's employ was out at different times up Miller's-court on the Thursday night for the purpose of getting water from a tap there-the only available supply."

Conversely, if Bowyer was at home at 3:00 am, what is he going all the way up Dorset street for to get water?

This is the whole article.

...Bowyer, the young man in Mr. McCarthy's employ was out at different times up Miller's-court on the Thursday night for the purpose of getting water from a tap there-the only available supply.Indeed, Bowyer vistited that spot as late-or, rather, as early-as three o'clock on the morning of the murder. This early visit to the water-tap is by no means an unfrequent thing, as Mr. Mccarthy's shop, which supplies the wants of a very poor and wretched locality, whose denziens are out at all hours, late and early, does not at times close until three o'clock in the morning,while occassionally it is open all night. Early on Friday morning Bowyer saw a man, whose description tallies with that of the supposed murderer. Bowyer has, he says, described this man to Inspector Abberline and Inspector Reid. Bowyer, who is known as "Indian Harry" has travelled a great deal, and formerly lived in India. He said to an Echo reporter this morning. "The murderer couldn't have come to a worse place (for escaping) than this court. There is only this narrow entrance, and If I had known he was there when I went to the water tap at three o'clock, I reckon he wouldn't have got off."
The Echo Wed. Nov. 14 1888

[Trevor Marriott]

At 3.00 am Mary Ann Cox returned home. She did not report seeing George Hutchinson.

At 3.00 am Bowyer was fetching water from the tap in Millers Court.

He did not report seeing Hutchinson; nor did he report seeing Mary Ann Cox.

Mary Ann Cox did not report seeing Bowyer.

Also, the water tap Bowyer was using was within a few feet of the broken windows of Room 13, yet he did not report any sounds coming from Mary Kelly or her astrakhan-trimmed companion.

Hutchinson states it was around 2am when he first saw Kelly, and states he waited 45 mins so perhaps by 3am he had left the location. But of course the times are not to be taken as totally accurate.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Curious Cat]

Please bear in mind, we only have McCarthy's word that she was so far in arrears. McCarthy was a bit of an underworld figure who just might see an opportunity to make some money from any relatives coming to her funeral.
It was customary for relatives to make good on any debts of a deceased family member.
Maybe, the debt was genuine.
Maybe, she was in a little debt, but McCarthy hiked it up.
Or worse, maybe she wasn't in debt at all.
I don't see anywhere that Barnett comments on or even acknowledges this debt.
It could be true, I'm just saying don't make it the foundation for any theory.

Bowyer is sent to collect the rent so arrives expecting to ask for the amount McCarthy has told him to ask Mary Kelly for. As this is before the body is discovered it would be incredible foresight on his part to thinking of hiking up the debt for relatives to pay.

Going back to the first week the rent wasn't paid, Barnett was still living with Mary at 13 Miller's Court so he would also owe half or part of the rent. He still lived there a few days into the second week but moved out on the Tuesday, not through not being able to pay the rent but because a woman he called "Julia" was staying there. He still would've owed part of the rent alongside Mary at the end of that week, but apparently, as the week before, it went unpaid. Over the third week, Barnett visited every day and apparently gave her some money but of course the rent - if she actually had managed to get enough together to pay all or some of it - was never collected that week.

Did McCarthy ever collect the rents himself or was it usual practice to send someone else?

[Curious Cat]

He said so...

"..Bowyer, the young man in Mr. McCarthy's employ was out at different times up Miller's-court on the Thursday night for the purpose of getting water from a tap there-the only available supply."

Conversely, if Bowyer was at home at 3:00 am, what is he going all the way up Dorset street for to get water?

This is the whole article.

...Bowyer, the young man in Mr. McCarthy's employ was out at different times up Miller's-court on the Thursday night for the purpose of getting water from a tap there-the only available supply.Indeed, Bowyer vistited that spot as late-or, rather, as early-as three o'clock on the morning of the murder. This early visit to the water-tap is by no means an unfrequent thing, as Mr. Mccarthy's shop, which supplies the wants of a very poor and wretched locality, whose denziens are out at all hours, late and early, does not at times close until three o'clock in the morning,while occassionally it is open all night. Early on Friday morning Bowyer saw a man, whose description tallies with that of the supposed murderer. Bowyer has, he says, described this man to Inspector Abberline and Inspector Reid. Bowyer, who is known as "Indian Harry" has travelled a great deal, and formerly lived in India. He said to an Echo reporter this morning. "The murderer couldn't have come to a worse place (for escaping) than this court. There is only this narrow entrance, and If I had known he was there when I went to the water tap at three o'clock, I reckon he wouldn't have got off."
The Echo Wed. Nov. 14 1888

What age was Bowyer?

[seanr]

He said so...

"..Bowyer, the young man in Mr. McCarthy's employ was out at different times up Miller's-court on the Thursday night for the purpose of getting water from a tap there-the only available supply."

Conversely, if Bowyer was at home at 3:00 am, what is he going all the way up Dorset street for to get water?

This is the whole article.

...Bowyer, the young man in Mr. McCarthy's employ was out at different times up Miller's-court on the Thursday night for the purpose of getting water from a tap there-the only available supply.Indeed, Bowyer vistited that spot as late-or, rather, as early-as three o'clock on the morning of the murder. This early visit to the water-tap is by no means an unfrequent thing, as Mr. Mccarthy's shop, which supplies the wants of a very poor and wretched locality, whose denziens are out at all hours, late and early, does not at times close until three o'clock in the morning,while occassionally it is open all night. Early on Friday morning Bowyer saw a man, whose description tallies with that of the supposed murderer. Bowyer has, he says, described this man to Inspector Abberline and Inspector Reid. Bowyer, who is known as "Indian Harry" has travelled a great deal, and formerly lived in India. He said to an Echo reporter this morning. "The murderer couldn't have come to a worse place (for escaping) than this court. There is only this narrow entrance, and If I had known he was there when I went to the water tap at three o'clock, I reckon he wouldn't have got off."
The Echo Wed. Nov. 14 1888

The answer as to why he is going all the way up Miller's Court is given in the article; it was the only available supply.

The article states Bowyer was employed by McCarthy, not that he was getting water at the time in pursuant of his duties. It doesn't dig into why Bowyer wanted the water or what he wanted it for.

Strange of Bowyer to mention seeing a man in the early hours of Friday, which he did not mention at the inquest.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Trevor,

Hutchinson: "When I left the corner of Miller's-court the clock [Spitalfields?] struck 3 o'clock."

But, of course, as we can't trust newspapers, and timings are always an approximation, his story cannot be relied upon as evidence.

Regards,

Simon

[Wickerman]

Bowyer is sent to collect the rent so arrives expecting to ask for the amount McCarthy has told him to ask Mary Kelly for. As this is before the body is discovered it would be incredible foresight on his part to thinking of hiking up the debt for relatives to pay.

It would, if that is what happened. But that is not what we read.

Bowyer makes no mention of any arrears in his police statement, nor at the inquest.
McCarthy told police on Friday that she was in arrears (as many tenants were) but makes no mention of by how much. Which is why I say the debt may have been small.
It is not until the inquest on Monday where McCarthy comes up with 29 shillings.
All I'm saying is, there's room for doubt that she owed as much as 29/-.

Did McCarthy ever collect the rents himself or was it usual practice to send someone else?

I guess the old adage, "why have a dog, and bark yourself", might be appropriate?
It was probably one of Bowyer's many jobs.

[seanr]

Did McCarthy ever collect the rents himself or was it usual practice to send someone else?

Bowyer was an ex-Army man and the debt was a princely sum for the area at the time. I do wonder if Bowyer was actually sent to throw Mary Kelly out or at least present the threat of eviction.