Help On Some Details

[Fisherman]

Would this have been before or after the murder of Catherine Eddowes?

It was supposedly shortly before, but I don´t know if there was any exact date mentioned. McCarthy was one of the people who said it happened "a short time before" the murder.

[Wickerman]

And with my experience with old spring latches probably not a lot of pressure required, jus a bit of leverage in the right spot.

Exactly, just a bit of leverage is all that's needed. The most damage likely is to break out the door jamb around the mortis lock. An easy fix as opposed to finding another door the right size and then installing it.

[Wickerman]

Superintendent Arnold, on arriving at the scene, ordered the door to be forced open

"I at once forced the door with a pickaxe, and we entered the room."

Soon Superintendent Arnold arrived, and instructions to burst the door open were given. "I at once forced it with a pickaxe and we entered."

[Dr. Phillips]—I remained until about 1:30, when the door was broken open, by M'Carthy I believe. I know he was waiting with a pickaxe to break open the door, and I believe he did it.

Superintendent Arnold, the officer in charge of the division, arrived on the scene, and at once took over charge. By his direction M'Carthy obtained a pickaxe, and the door was forced open.

Or, then again, perhaps the door was broken open by a policeman—

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Notice McCarthy makes no mention at the inquest of forcing the door himself?

[Joshua Rogan]

The window was broken in a row between Kelly and Barnett some little time before the murder.

Daily Telegraph 10 Nov;
"During the day the police succeeded in finding John Barnett, the man with whom the deceased had cohabited until a week ago, when they separated in consequence of a quarrel, in the course of which the window was broken."

According to Barnett's inquest testimony, the date was actually on Tuesday 30th Oct

Daily Telegraph 13 Nov
Barnett: "I separated from her on Oct. 30......I left her on the Tuesday between five and six p.m."

[Robert]

I too am not sure about the flies. In "Wuthering Heights" Mr Lockwood (in winter) notes hams etc hanging from the walls. Well, everyone at the Heights must have ended up sick, in that case.

[rjpalmer]

Do you think Moore was just spinnng a dramatic tale, or perhaps mis-remembering this, from the Star 10 Nov 88?

It is, of course, possible that Inspector Moore was having a spot of fun "pulling the reporter's leg," and the story does sound more than a bit like a tale suitable for a Sunday paper, but, on the other hand, it also has a certain explanatory power for explaining the door being forced. I would like to give the coppers the benefit of the doubt, rather than accuse them of myopia.

Yet, ultimately, I guess I lack sympathy for a pickaxe being used when two handy windows were nearby. I have even less sympathy for mucking around for an entire two hours, waiting on bloodhounds that were no longer even in London. It has '**** up' written over it. Although Dr. Phillips could see enough through the window to determine the victim was no longer in need of medical attention, it certainly doesn't look good from a Public Relations standpoint to idle away two hours. In theory, the murderer could have been hiding under the bed a la Lipski. He wasn't, but even that aside, the modern cliche is that if a homicide is not solved in the first 24 hours, the chance of success drops off considerably. Until the room was entered and searched, they wouldn't have known whether or not the murderer had accidently left incriminating evidence at the scene, and, if he had, they just handed him an extra two hours to make it to Liverpool or Folkestone. I'm not sure even Sarah H. Sanders could spin that one to look like efficient and competent procedure.

[Observer]

Exactly, just a bit of leverage is all that's needed. The most damage likely is to break out the door jamb around the mortis lock. An easy fix as opposed to finding another door the right size and then installing it.

Precisely. A pick rammed into the door jamb at the lock would be an ideal leverage tool to force the door. As you say why destroy the door. The illustration a few posts back shows a policeman using a sledgehammer, artistic license seems to be in evidence here.

[Fisherman]

Daily Telegraph 10 Nov;
"During the day the police succeeded in finding John Barnett, the man with whom the deceased had cohabited until a week ago, when they separated in consequence of a quarrel, in the course of which the window was broken."

According to Barnett's inquest testimony, the date was actually on Tuesday 30th Oct

Daily Telegraph 13 Nov
Barnett: "I separated from her on Oct. 30......I left her on the Tuesday between five and six p.m."

There we are - thanks for that, Joshua!

[Trevor Marriott]

Duplicated

[Joshua Rogan]

It is, of course, possible that Inspector Moore was having a spot of fun "pulling the reporter's leg," and the story does sound more than a bit like a tale suitable for a Sunday paper, but, on the other hand, it also has a certain explanatory power for explaining the door being forced. I would like to give the coppers the benefit of the doubt, rather than accuse them of myopia.

Not so much myopia as focusing their efforts elsewhere. Since they chose to wait for the dogs before entering, they probably got on with other stuff, such as taking witness statements and the like, until they (or as it turned out, Arnold) arrived.

Yet, ultimately, I guess I lack sympathy for a pickaxe being used when two handy windows were nearby. I have even less sympathy for mucking around for an entire two hours, waiting on bloodhounds that were no longer even in London. It has '**** up' written over it.

I agree that the affair of the bloodhounds was a bit of a fiasco, but I don't think it's a matter of incompetence, so much as a lack of communication, although it might amount to the same thing. I don't think anyone in the court was aware they weren't available until Arnold appeared on the scene. And it's instructive, I think, that it was he - rather than any of those already present - who ordered the door forced, seemingly the moment he arrived.

If the killer left by a window, then he managed to neatly close the curtains/blinds/coat behind him and either left it unlocked (which nobody mentioned) or he took the time and trouble to lock the window behind him, which seems unlikely, if Moore's story has any merit.

Although Dr. Phillips could see enough through the window to determine the victim was no longer in need of medical attention, it certainly doesn't look good from a Public Relations standpoint to idle away two hours. In theory, the murderer could have been hiding under the bed a la Lipski. He wasn't, but even that aside, the modern cliche is that if a homicide is not solved in the first 24 hours, the chance of success drops off considerably. Until the room was entered and searched, they wouldn't have known whether or not the murderer had accidently left incriminating evidence at the scene, and, if he had, they just handed him an extra two hours to make it to Liverpool or Folkestone. I'm not sure even Sarah H. Sanders could spin that one to look like efficient and competent procedure.

As I said above, once the police had decided (probably wrongly as it turned out) that their best chance of tracking the killer was with the bloodhounds rather than any clue that may or may not have been left in room 13, I suspect that they got on with other stuff rather than standing around twiddling their thumbs until the dogs arrived.

[Wickerman]

...... I don't think anyone in the court was aware they weren't available until Arnold appeared on the scene. And it's instructive, I think, that it was he - rather than any of those already present - who ordered the door forced, seemingly the moment he arrived.

Yes, and that presents a different picture than what some have believed. The police were not debating how to get in to the room for 2.5 hrs, they were waiting for the dogs.
Arnold changed all that on his arrival, the dogs were not coming, so he ordered the door to be opened. The police would not have a sledge hammer with them, or a pickaxe, so naturally they would say, 'we need an axe'.

This, I believe would be when McCarthy stepped forward telling them he had one, but I'll do it. "You ham fisted lot will just smash the door in"...or words to that effect.
So, contrary to what some suggest, there was no period of time for anyone to debate how they open the door. It was a snap decision at the spur of the moment.

[Simon Wood]

Happy Christmas, Jon,

I would respectfully refer you to my Post #19.

In addition, recall that no bloodhounds were available that day, thus making Anderson's explanation of events another example of his mendacious BS.

The seemingly wasted 2½ hours may have been put to good use.

Regards,

Simon

[rjpalmer]

I think you're letting Robert Anderson off too easy, Wickerman. As Simon correctly notes in Post 19, Scotland Yard was telephoned about the murder, and by 11.00 Anderson and Arnold had discussed the matter and decided not to send the dogs...which was, incidentally, against the previous orders of Sir Charles Warren. Yet it still took another 2 1/2 hours for Arnold to arrive on the scene and tell them the dogs weren't coming?

In the general scheme of things, it seems pretty strange to have a dead woman in a room, the door lock accessible through a broken window, and yet it takes 2 1/2 hours for a dozen policemen to finally enter the room. It sounds a lot like H-Division was being held back by the lack of communication and/or infighting of the upper brass

[Wickerman]

Excuse me gents, where is this story about Arnold arriving at Millers Court at 11:00 coming from?
Phillips only arrived at 11:15, Arnold was not present then. Arnold arrived at 1:30, according to the inquest.
Or, are you saying Arnold should/could have phoned Comm. St. Stn. to expedite the situation?

Likely, Arnold wanted to be present when the door was forced.

[Wickerman]

Happy Christmas, Jon,

I would respectfully refer you to my Post #19.

In addition, recall that no bloodhounds were available that day, thus making Anderson's explanation of events another example of his mendacious BS.

The seemingly wasted 2½ hours may have been put to good use.

Regards,

Simon

Happy Christmas Simon.

Do you have the source for this piece about Arnold being with Anderson at Scotland Yard?