If Mrs. Maxwell Didn't See Mary Who Did She See?

[packers stem]

No.
The correction is not Badham's or Hutchinson's.
It was made after the signing.

If Badham had taken it higher before the signing,it would have been initialed.

Aren't there two completely different signatures on page 1 and page 2 anyway ?

[Sam Flynn]

Aren't there two completely different signatures on page 1 and page 2 anyway ?

Only the first "H" in "Hutchinson" materially differs, and the other letters are very similar, if not pretty much the same.

[DJA]

Don't have it in front of me,however that does ring a bell.

I don't use my "bank signature" on everything.

Changed my capital H's some years ago. Rarely write the original anymore.

[packers stem]

Don't have it in front of me,however that does ring a bell.

I don't use my "bank signature" on everything.

Changed my capital H's some years ago. Rarely write the original anymore.

Did you sign it the old way and the new way on the same day Dave ? On the very same day you just so happen to be signing an important document ?

Signatures are formulated over a period of time , doesn't drastically change on the day .
Either way , a very well educated person created both of George's signatures ... ahem

[packers stem]

Only the first "H" in "Hutchinson" materially differs, and the other letters are very similar, if not pretty much the same.

The capital is the most important letter of a signature and very unlikely to change.... certainly not within minutes

[Sam Flynn]

The capital is the most important letter of a signature and very unlikely to change.... certainly not within minutes

My first attempt at my signature often comes out wrong, to the extent where I take a few "practice runs" on a bit of scrap paper before I sign anything. This is especially true in recent years, since I very rarely use my signature - I can't remember when I last signed a cheque or wrote a letter, for example. I doubt that an unemployed groom/labourer in the 1880s would have had too many opportunities to practice his handwriting, still less his signature, so it's hardly surprising if one or two letters came out wonky when he was asked to sign the statement. The fact that he starts out with a "flowery" H and then abandons it is not particularly surprising either - I sometimes affect a "flowery" first letter in one or both parts of my name, only to give it up as a bad job on the next page. Besides, the fact remains that the "Geo(rge) utchinson" bits don't significantly differ from each other on all three pages of the statement, and I see no reason to suppose that they were the work of different men.

[DJA]

Did you sign it the old way and the new way on the same day Dave ? On the very same day you just so happen to be signing an important document ?

Signatures are formulated over a period of time , doesn't drastically change on the day .
Either way , a very well educated person created both of George's signatures ... ahem

I do.
Rarely use my bank signature or sign important documents.
Last December springs to mind.
Bank,Medicare,Chiro,Chemist. Only the bank got my official signature.

Expect Hutchinson received an excellent education aboard The Exmouth.

[packers stem]

My first attempt at my signature often comes out wrong, to the extent where I take a few "practice runs" on a bit of scrap paper before I sign anything. This is especially true in recent years, since I very rarely use my signature - I can't remember when I last signed a cheque or wrote a letter, for example. I doubt that an unemployed groom/labourer in the 1880s would have had too many opportunities to practice his handwriting, still less his signature, so it's hardly surprising if one or two letters came out wonky when he was asked to sign the statement. The fact that he starts out with a "flowery" H and then abandons it is not particularly surprising either - I sometimes affect a "flowery" first letter in one or both parts of my name, only to give it up as a bad job on the next page. Besides, the fact remains that the "Geo(rge) utchinson" bits don't significantly differ from each other on all three pages of the statement, and I see no reason to suppose that they were the work of different men.

I'm stunned at the lengths people will go to to back up a pet theory in ripperology .
I felt sure you could sign your own name and your experience of having to practice is not typical .
I rarely pick up a pen these days as everything is digital but if I'm signing a cheque , credit agreement or the like I can certainly do it.Though my writing isn't what it used to be due to lack of practice my signature isn't an issue .
I'm just trying to picture someone asking for a scrap of paper in a car showroom saying they need to practice before signing lol
The whole idea of a signature is that it's meant to be personal to you .....most people practiced it in their teens maybe but not later .
I do however agree that that the perfectly flowing signature on page 2 was not that of a groom/labourer ..... that much is obvious .
Clearly someone well used to handling a pen

[DJA]

Personal groom.
Personal steward was the naval term.

[Phil Carter]

Hi all,

First of all there are three main differences.
One, The H in Hutchinson and two, the foreshortening of the Christian name from George to Geo. Then we look at the so called marriage certificate of One of the proposed "identities" of Hutchinson. It is totally different. To BOTH signatures on the statement

When one looks at the complete statement, the person who wrote "H Division" is clearly the writer of one of the signatures. Exactly the same H is used. It also shows that this person wrote the text on that same page.
Mr Hutchinson would not write "H Division" at the top of the page.. A policeman would. That is very plainly true.
So whomever wrote that part of the text signed the document as well. At least once.

Then we come to point two. "Geo" is not written with a full stop of abbreviation and is flowing, without pause, into Hutchinson. This is most unusual to do, especially with an abbreviated form of Christian name. A pause in a signature is almost always in place between the two names..if the Christian name is written either in full or abbreviated.

Seems to me Badham signed once, with either Hutchinson himself or a. n. other policeman, possibly Abberline, signing the other example.


Phil

[Abby Normal]

The point here Abby is that she knew she was around 24 and that she was from Limerick when interviewed by the press on the day of the murder
So yes , you would need to find another 24 year old Mary Jane from Limerick living in the court to write this off.
The fact that it was daylight,she lived opposite and would be well used to seeing her coming and going from the court and she actually carried out a conversation with somebody that she knew puts her testimony head and shoulders above anybody else .
No other witness ID comes even close to Maxwell
So for those reasons no , I can't accept that she could have been mistaken

Perhaps She had heard about mary before ever seeing/ meeting her. And there were alot of ypung women coming and going from the court, even marys room as she let them stay with her.
Maxwell own admission she only saw her a couple of times.
She was probably mistaken.

[Sam Flynn]

the foreshortening of the Christian name from George to Geo...

I don't see that as a problem, Phil, anymore than if someone had written "William" in full the first time and "Wm" subsequently. It's just an expedient, and I've been known to do something similar myself. (As a civil servant, I've often been required to sign multiple copies of things, so I'm speaking from experience.)

[Phil Carter]

Hello Gareth,

Well.. In my youth I was a Purchasing Officer. I signed 50 orders per day. My previous boss taught me that I was signing an important document.. Therefore, take care when signing. My signature was almost the same each time. Likewise on credit cards etc.
As far as witness statements.. I have signed three in my life. The first two hand written, the last was last year which was on a pc and all I needed to do was sign it. On all three occasions.. The same rule as above applied. With care.
Now we don't actually know who this Hutchinson guy was. But he is giving a witness statement. An important one.
My bet is Badham.. Who may have written the statement, signed it at least once.. See previous post.


Phil

[Sam Flynn]

Both you and I are far more familiar with using our signatures than a young, poverty class man from the 19th century East End would have been, Phil.

[DJA]

Greek parachutist warning!