If Mrs. Maxwell Didn't See Mary Who Did She See?

[Joshua Rogan]

Mrs Maxwell did not get the day wrong.

The Bishopsgate shopkeeper confirmed her purchase of milk on the morning of Friday 9th November.

Yes, according to the Times 12 Nov;

"When asked by the police how she could fix the time of the morning, Mrs. Maxwell replied, "Because I went to the milkshop for some milk, and I had not before been there for a long time, and that she was wearing a woollen cross-over that I had not seen her wear for a considerable time". On inquiries being made at the milkshop indicated by the woman her statement was found to be correct, and the cross-over was also found in Kelly's room."

[Joshua Rogan]

Dr. Phillips could not have begun to examine the body in Room 13 until 1.30 pm, the time the door was broken open.

And so, if as reported by The Times, 12th November, “she had been dead some five or six hours” at the time of his examination, it put the time of Kelly's death somewhere between 7.30 and 8.30 am, six or seven hours after Dr. Bond’s estimation, and within a reasonable margin of error for Mrs. Maxwell's sighting.

Times 12 Nov;
"Against these statements is the opinion of Dr. George Bagster Phillips, the divisional surgeon of the H Division, that when he was called to the deceased (at a quarter to 11) she had been dead some five or six hours"

[Joshua Rogan]

Precisely Joshua.
An alternative we tend to avoid today because Maxwell's sighting is typically ridiculed, so we believe the police also ridiculed her sighting.
This is probably an error on our part.

I think she was mistaken too, but it's what the police thought at the time that is important. And I believe what we know about this incident is consistent with the police believing both Maxwell & Lewis.
That only changed after the inquest, and after Hutchinson appeared.

Not sure about that, Jon...if the police did initially believe Maxwell, that's not what they told the press;

"As to the evidence of the woman Caroline Maxwell, who swore that she saw the deceased at eight or nine o'clock on Friday morning, that is regarded by the police as merely an error of date. No doubt she did see the woman, and spoke to her as she stated, but on Thursday morning instead of Friday"

Sorry, forgot to note where this came from.

[Simon Wood]

How could Dr. Phillips have known at 10.45 am how long the victim had been dead?

Like everyone else, at this time he could only peek through the broken window.

[Joshua Rogan]

He wasn't the only one;

"Times 12 Nov
It is the opinion of Mr. M'Carthy [McCarthy], the landlord of 26, Dorset-street, that the woman was murdered at a much earlier hour than 8 o'clock, and that Mrs. Maxwell and the other person must have been mistaken."

Could it be as simple as, to those that saw the body - even through the window - it was obvious it had been dead a lot longer than an hour or two?

[Simon Wood]

I'd forgotten that McCarthy was a doctor.

[Wickerman]

Not sure about that, Jon...if the police did initially believe Maxwell, that's not what they told the press;

"As to the evidence of the woman Caroline Maxwell, who swore that she saw the deceased at eight or nine o'clock on Friday morning, that is regarded by the police as merely an error of date. No doubt she did see the woman, and spoke to her as she stated, but on Thursday morning instead of Friday"

Sorry, forgot to note where this came from.

I have to wonder what it takes to get the Press Reports Search working again!!!

That aside, your quote was from the Daily News of the 13th, so after the inquest. Which is what I suspect, the question is what was their opinion before the inquest.

[Wickerman]

How could Dr. Phillips have known at 10.45 am how long the victim had been dead?

Like everyone else, at this time he could only peek through the broken window.

The quote from the Times is third-hand, so we do not know exactly what the doctor did say. However, given the known methods in the day I can't see how the doctor could estimate her time of death at 1:30 or at 10:45. It simply was not possible, regardless which time you prefer.

[Simon Wood]

Doctor George Bagster Phillips inquest testimony—

"I was called by the police on Friday morning at eleven o'clock, and on proceeding to Miller's-court, which I entered at 11.15, I found a room, the door of which led out of the passage at the side of 26, Dorset-street, photographs of which I produce. It had two windows in the court. Two panes in the lesser window were broken, and as the door was locked I looked through the lower of the broken panes and satisfied myself that the mutilated corpse lying on the bed was not in need of any immediate attention from me, and I also came to the conclusion that there was nobody else upon the bed, or within view, to whom I could render any professional assistance."

So much for 10.45 am.

Inquest testimony continued—

"I remained until about 1.30 p.m., when the door was broken open by McCarthy, under the direction of Superintendent Arnold. On the door being opened it knocked against a table which was close to the left-hand side of the bedstead, and the bedstead was close against the wooden partition. The mutilated remains of a woman were lying two- thirds over, towards the edge of the bedstead, nearest the door. Deceased had only an under- linen garment upon her, and by subsequent examination I am sure the body had been removed, after the injury which caused death, from that side of the bedstead which was nearest to the wooden partition previously mentioned. The large quantity of blood under the bedstead, the saturated condition of the palliasse, pillow, and sheet at the top corner of the bedstead nearest to the partition leads me to the conclusion that the severance of the right carotid artery, which was the immediate cause of death, was inflicted while the deceased was lying at the right side of the bedstead and her head and neck in the top right-hand corner."

So the earliest Dr. Phillips could have estimated the victim's time of death was after the door had been broken open at 1.30 pm.

[Sam Flynn]

How could Dr. Phillips have known at 10.45 am how long the victim had been dead?

Like everyone else, at this time he could only peek through the broken window.

Maybe the blood was obviously "old" to the sight - e.g. dark and heavily clotted in regions where it had pooled, and browning and drying on the bedclothes where the blood was more thinly distributed. This wouldn't have allowed a TOD to be determined with any degree of accuracy, but it could have provided a visual clue to its being several hours old, at least.

[Trevor Marriott]

Maybe the blood was obviously "old" to the sight - e.g. dark and heavily clotted in regions where it had pooled, and browning and drying on the bedclothes where the blood was more thinly distributed. This wouldn't have allowed a TOD to be determined with any degree of accuracy, but it could have provided a visual clue to its being several hours old, at least.

May I remind one and all what Dr Biggs says regarding estimating time of death.

" In the olden days, doctors used to state a confident and precise ‘time of death’ based on subjective observations, but this was little more than guesswork. Nowadays, we recognize that it is subjective and highly variable. In fact, the official guidance from the Forensic Science Regulator is that pathologists shouldn’t attempt to estimate the post mortem interval! Even with a measured temperature you couldn’t estimate a time since death to within less than a few hours. Suggesting that death happened 30 minutes previously based on subjective observations would be laughed out of court these days... but in 1888 people believed just about anything a doctor said"

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[John Wheat]

Of course the possibility remains that Mrs Maxwell did see Mary Jane Kelly.

[Wickerman]

.....

So the earliest Dr. Phillips could have estimated the victim's time of death was after the door had been broken open at 1.30 pm.

Yes, "sometime after 1:30 pm".
The investigation of the body (a post-mortem) began around 2:00?, so no reasonable conclusions could have been arrived at until the post-mortem had begun, so well after 1:30, probably between 2-3:00 at the earliest.

[c.d.]

I have to think that since apparently Barnett and Hutchinson never rose beyond person of interest status that the police considered the discrepancy in TOD as estimated by the doctors and Maxwell's story to be somewhat of a moot point. In other words, it did not tend by itself to implicate or exonerate anyone since they had no real suspects and it probably did not impact the direction the investigation was already taking.

c.d.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jon,

Okay.

So, if at 2.00 pm “she had been dead some five or six hours” [The Times, 12th November 1888], this puts her TOD between 8 and 9.00 am.