If Mrs. Maxwell Didn't See Mary Who Did She See?

[Abby Normal]

Was it a scream?
I always thought it more of a faint sigh, and It has always come across to me as being too over dramatic and atraight from the boards of Wiltons Music Hall .

I really cant believe that if your about to me murdered, anyone would say that.

Regards

why not? apparently it was common back then to scream that if you needed help. or actually being murdered. lol.

lets not over think this.

[spyglass]

well considering maxwells sighting probably wouldn't give enough time for her to solicite a man, walk back to her place, stoke up a big fire and get murdered and extensively mutilated and the man to leave in broad daylight in late morning without being seen by anyone.

and that there were two corroborated screams of murder in the middle of the night, a large fire which clothes were burned in (most probably by the killer) I would go with a TOD in the middle of the night 4ish.

Was it a scream?
I always thought it more of a faint sigh, and It has always come across to me as being too over dramatic and atraight from the boards of Wiltons Music Hall .

I really cant believe that if your about to me murdered, anyone would say that.

Regards

[Michael W Richards]

And Prater's testimony seems to cast some doubt on that theory, unless Mary was murdered & mutilated in total silence & total darkness. As Prater passed up the stairs.

She could have been strangled, smothered and suffocated, choked,...in virtual silence, and the killer then waited some minutes for the person climbing the stairs,......which the person in that room would have heard..., to go upstairs and settle in. How much light did that killer really need...would a glow from a dying fire be enough light to disassemble a human being? The heart could have been accessed by virtue of the fact that her entire abdomen and midsection was emptied...how much light, and skill, did that take? Certainly unlike a specific organ removal out in public, done competently even under the conditions.

[Abby Normal]

well considering maxwells sighting probably wouldn't give enough time for her to solicite a man, walk back to her place, stoke up a big fire and get murdered and extensively mutilated and the man to leave in broad daylight in late morning without being seen by anyone.

and that there were two corroborated screams of murder in the middle of the night, a large fire which clothes were burned in (most probably by the killer) I would go with a TOD in the middle of the night 4ish.

[Wickerman]

And Prater's testimony seems to cast some doubt on that theory, unless Mary was murdered & mutilated in total silence & total darkness. As Prater passed up the stairs.

[Michael W Richards]

Thats how we might interpret it yes.
My question is, how could he determine this to any degree of accuracy?

What Scotland Yard had was Dr. Bond's estimated time of death suggesting 1-2:00 am.
And, this report was mentioned in the press as being largely in concurrence with the opinions of Dr Phillips.

So we are left with a problem, which opinion from Philips is the more likely to be nearer the truth?

That time of Bonds coincides very nicely with the time that Marys room had become dark and silent....by a witness beyond reproach...some who we know actually knew the deceased and likely saw her almost daily, if not daily.

Which makes the man she entered the room with...and nobody saw leaving..primo suspectus.

[Wickerman]

So much for what 'we' might believe.

The real question is, what did the police believe?
- Dr Bond?
- or witness testimony?, and if so, which witness; Cox, Hutchinson or Maxwell?

[Wickerman]

I guess we both know neither are reliable, because both suggestions came via the press.
Phillips's said nothing at the inquest to enlighten us on a time of death.

The press report that he suggested 5 - 6 hours, but they did not quote him.
The press also say Phillips largely agreed with Dr Bonds report, but they did not say what the exceptions were. One may have been that time of death, we just do not know.

So from where I am no theorist can reasonably use either argument.

[Simon Wood]

Pick whichever one best fits your overview of the subject.

It's what Ripperology excels in.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Okay.

So, if at 2.00 pm “she had been dead some five or six hours” [The Times, 12th November 1888], this puts her TOD between 8 and 9.00 am.

Thats how we might interpret it yes.
My question is, how could he determine this to any degree of accuracy?

What Scotland Yard had was Dr. Bond's estimated time of death suggesting 1-2:00 am.
And, this report was mentioned in the press as being largely in concurrence with the opinions of Dr Phillips.

So we are left with a problem, which opinion from Philips is the more likely to be nearer the truth?

[spyglass]

Maurice Lewis and one other report by a woman.

Thanks....that's the fella!

[GUT]

I'm quite certain she did...as did the other person who's name escapes me.
Also as far as I remember, Maxwell stuck to her story right up to and including the inquest.

Regards

Maurice Lewis and one other report by a woman.

[spyglass]

Of course the possibility remains that Mrs Maxwell did see Mary Jane Kelly.

I'm quite certain she did...as did the other person who's name escapes me.
Also as far as I remember, Maxwell stuck to her story right up to and including the inquest.

Regards

[Wickerman]

May I remind one and all what Dr Biggs says regarding estimating time of death.

" In the olden days, doctors used to state a confident and precise ‘time of death’ based on subjective observations, but this was little more than guesswork. Nowadays, we recognize that it is subjective and highly variable. In fact, the official guidance from the Forensic Science Regulator is that pathologists shouldn’t attempt to estimate the post mortem interval! Even with a measured temperature you couldn’t estimate a time since death to within less than a few hours. Suggesting that death happened 30 minutes previously based on subjective observations would be laughed out of court these days... but in 1888 people believed just about anything a doctor said"

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

You say "people believed". The police certainly preferred to believe medical opinion, but that recent fiasco with Phillips giving a ToD for Chapman which clearly conflicted with witness statements had to make Scotland Yard more cautious over the Kelly ToD.
They were not giving any opinions on this time of death , and I'm sure Phillips didn't either - once bitten - twice shy, so to speak.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jon,

Okay.

So, if at 2.00 pm “she had been dead some five or six hours” [The Times, 12th November 1888], this puts her TOD between 8 and 9.00 am.