Mary Kellys Inquest

[Debra A]

Thanks for the explanation, John. The names being taken from the electoral registers makes sense when we find jurors have addresses in common.

[Scott Nelson]

And they had to be able to sign their names or they wouldn't get a crown seal.

[DJA]

...... or an elephant stamp.

[Bridewell]

Hi Debs

I believe the jurors would have been summoned personally by the coroner's officer. He would probably have used the electoral register or possibly local council records of ratepayers.

At one time jurors were selected from the electoral roll numerically - a random number was chosen and the jury picked from that; e.g. if the number was 856, then every 856th person on the roll would be called up. (I suspect it's rather more sophisticated now).

[Joshua Rogan]

Morning Advertiser (London)
3 September 1888

THE LISTS OF JURYMEN
Yesterday the lists of the names of those persons liable to serve as special and common jurymen in England and Wales during the year were exhibited on the doors of every church, chapel, and other public places of worship over England and Wales, where they can be inspected by every one, and where they will remain during the next two Sundays. Every person whose name appears in these lists will be liable to serve as a juryman except those who are over 60 years of age, and those among others who are exempt by reason of being peers, Members of Parliament, judges, clergymen, Roman Catholic priests, members of the bar, solicitors, officers of the Law Courts, coroners, doctors, the household servants of Her Majesty, the officers of the Post Office, Customs and Inland Revenue, Magistrates, and their staffs, and others. During the last week in this month the justices of the peace in every division in England and Wales will hold a special petty session for the purpose of correcting the lists, and of allowing any objection to serve which may be substantiated.

[John Savage]

Hi Joshua,

That's very interesting, thanks for posting.

Rgds
JOhn

[Joshua Rogan]

You're welcome. I'm not sure it shows how jurors were selected, only informed, but interesting none the less.

I did think it showed that they were selected parish by parish (I can't see them posting a list of every juror in England on every church door, they would be very long lists), but there's a puzzling bit of confusion over the Kelly inquest which seems to suggest the jurors were from two different parishes;

Daily News 13th Nov
"The jury having answered to their names, one of them said: I do not see why we should have the inquest thrown upon our shoulders, when the murder did not happen in our district, but in Whitechapel.

The Coroner's Officer (Mr. Hammond): It did not happen in Whitechapel.

The Coroner ( to the juror, severely): Do you think that we do not know what we are doing here, and that we do not know our own district ? The jury are summoned in the ordinary way, and they have no business to object. If they persist in their objection I shall know how to deal with them. Does any juror persist in objecting ?

The Juror: We are summoned for the Shoreditch district. This affair happened in Spitalfields.

The Coroner: It happened within my district.

Another Juryman: This is not my district. I come from Whitechapel, and Mr. Baxter is my coroner.

The Coroner: I am not going to discuss the subject with jurymen at all. If any juryman says he distinctly objects, let him say so. (After a pause): I may tell the jurymen that jurisdiction lies where the body lies, not where it was found, if there was doubt as to the district where the body was found.

The jury having made no further objection, they were duly sworn."

So some jurors were from Whitechapel and some from Shoreditch....

[Debra A]

And they had to be able to sign their names or they wouldn't get a crown seal.

Sometimes they got a crown seal and didn't sign,

[Debra A]

This is probably a silly question but I'll ask anyway, -I was just wondering if jurymen for Coroner's courts were selected in the same way that criminal court jurymen were selected?
I was thinking about Albert Bachert and his serving on a Coroner's jury but he only seems to appear on the lodgers electoral register once (which surprised me given that he was so politically minded, canvasing for the Tory candidate in 84) and this was after being turned down for coroner's jury service at the Coles inquest where he apparently volunteered his services.

[DJA]

You're welcome. I'm not sure it shows how jurors were selected, only informed, but interesting none the less.

I did think it showed that they were selected parish by parish (I can't see them posting a list of every juror in England on every church door, they would be very long lists), but there's a puzzling bit of confusion over the Kelly inquest which seems to suggest the jurors were from two different parishes;

Daily News 13th Nov
"The jury having answered to their names, one of them said: I do not see why we should have the inquest thrown upon our shoulders, when the murder did not happen in our district, but in Whitechapel.

The Coroner's Officer (Mr. Hammond): It did not happen in Whitechapel.

The Coroner ( to the juror, severely): Do you think that we do not know what we are doing here, and that we do not know our own district ? The jury are summoned in the ordinary way, and they have no business to object. If they persist in their objection I shall know how to deal with them. Does any juror persist in objecting ?

The Juror: We are summoned for the Shoreditch district. This affair happened in Spitalfields.

The Coroner: It happened within my district.

Another Juryman: This is not my district. I come from Whitechapel, and Mr. Baxter is my coroner.

The Coroner: I am not going to discuss the subject with jurymen at all. If any juryman says he distinctly objects, let him say so. (After a pause): I may tell the jurymen that jurisdiction lies where the body lies, not where it was found, if there was doubt as to the district where the body was found.

The jury having made no further objection, they were duly sworn."

So some jurors were from Whitechapel and some from Shoreditch....

But none from Spitalfields where Mary was actually murdered.

Another coincidence ...... the Vestry Board.

St. Leonard,Shoreditch, Town Hall, Old St., E.C.
Clerk Enoch WALKER Medical Officer Henry Gawen SUTTON,md
Surveyor George Charles PERRETT Analyst Thomas STEVENSON,md,Guys
Hospital

Couple of very familiar names there in Sutton and Stevenson.

[John Savage]

Hi Joshua,

"The Juror: We are summoned for the Shoreditch district. This affair happened in Spitalfields.

The Coroner: It happened within my district.

Another Juryman: This is not my district. I come from Whitechapel, and Mr. Baxter is my coroner."

It must be remembered that Coroner MacDonald only became coroner for the new division of North East Middlesex in July 1888 when Wynne Baxter's East Middlesex division was split into two.

Also in the same year new parish boundaries had been introduced under the Local Government Act of 1887, these boundaries were rather confusing.

No wonder the juryman was confused.

Rgds
John

[Joshua Rogan]

No wonder the juryman was confused.

Thanks John! I feel a bit better about not being able to get my head around it now.
I'm pretty sure even with the boundary changes that Whitechapel was still under Baxter's jurisdiction, so it seems the jurors were selected from both East and NE Middlesex divisions...or am I still confused?

[John Savage]

Hi Joshua,

Don't worry about being confused as the boundaries between Whitechapel
and Shoreditch were confusing after the effects of the Local Government Act of 1887, which in effect came into force in 1888.

At one time I did have a map of the boundaries and it seems that some people could be affected by which side of the street they lived, so one side of the street might have been in Whitechapel and the other not.

If you need further information I can only suggest you look at Ripperologist #65 - The Green of The Peak, by Robert Linford, David OFlaherty and some other bloke. (page 33 onward).

Rgds
John

[Simon Wood]

“Snowden’s Police Officer’s Guide,” 1885—

“It is not the duty of the police to remove a dead body from any house where it may be lying. Persons applying to the police with such an object should be referred to the parochial authorities.”

All the police had to do was determine in whose jurisdiction the body lay and contact the relevant authority.

In this instance the parochial authority was Shoreditch, which was within the North East Middlesex coroner's district.

Removing the body thus became the responsibility of Thomas Hammond, Coroner Roderick Macdonald’s officer since the summer of 1888.

Star, 10th November 1888—

“In the Dorset Street case, there was no duty cast upon the police to remove the body from the house where it was found, and the coroner's officer for the district being communicated with, he was obliged to take it where he could. If he had taken it to Old Montague Street, it would have gone from his control, so he took it to Shoreditch, which is within his district.”

On the following day, Saturday 10th November, coronial life went on as usual. Dr. Macdonald held an 'inquiry' at the Pitt's Head public house into the death of a four year old boy. Wynne Baxter held an inquest at Poplar Town Hall into the death of an eleven month old boy, and in the evening an inquest at Shadwell into the mysterious death by drowning of Frances Annie Hancock.

Neither coroner was fighting over the jurisdiction of the Millers Court murder victim.

South Wales Echo, 12th November 1888—

"The coroner [Macdonald] complained of the unfounded statements in the press as to alleged communications between himself and Mr. Wynne Baxter with regard to jurisdiction."

Meanwhile, as the Kelly inquest proceeded, "Jack the Ripper" was appearing before the magistrate at Marlborough Street Police Court.

Regards,

Simon

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Joshua,

Don't worry about being confused as the boundaries between Whitechapel
and Shoreditch were confusing after the effects of the Local Government Act of 1887, which in effect came into force in 1888.

At one time I did have a map of the boundaries and it seems that some people could be affected by which side of the street they lived, so one side of the street might have been in Whitechapel and the other not.

If you need further information I can only suggest you look at Ripperologist #65 - The Green of The Peak, by Robert Linford, David OFlaherty and some other bloke. (page 33 onward).

Rgds
John

Thanks again John. I found an 1877 map showing the boundaries, but this isn't much good if they changed a decade later. I will check out the article you suggest, cheers. In the meantime, I've just come across this tantalisingly curtailed snippet from the Star 10th Nov;

"WHO WILL HOLD THE INQUEST?
The removal of Kelly's body to the Shoreditch mortuary is likely to lead to some complications through the intersection of the local boundaries and the jurisdiction of the two coroners for the newly-formed divisions of Eastern Middlesex. Spitalfields, although within the Whitechapel district for all local purposes, is within (cont'd next page)"

Whew, the second half is there too;
"...the North Eastern Division of Middlesex, and is therefore under the jurisdiction of Dr. Macdonald. All the other portions of Whitechapel remain under the jurisdiction of Mr. Baxter, so far as coroner's inquests are concerned."

So that seems to confirm exactly what you were saying. Good stuff.