Mary Kellys Inquest

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks Debs and David. Not that I'm any the wiser - what did the crowns represent? And why didn't they all get to wear one?
I think there's a report of the Chapman inquest that gives a list of the jurors, but on the second day one juror wasn't present so was represented by a commissionaire....could it be something like that?

[Darryl Kenyon]

No family member attended Mary's funeral. Since she was supposed to have six brothers and a sister it is hard what to make of what Mary told Joe Barnett since nearly all the info we have on her is through him.

[Debra A]

Thanks Debs and David. Not that I'm any the wiser - what did the crowns represent? And why didn't they all get to wear one?
I think there's a report of the Chapman inquest that gives a list of the jurors, but on the second day one juror wasn't present so was represented by a commissionaire....could it be something like that?

I have no idea except that I thought normally there were 18 lines with crowns stamped at the end of the line and these were filled in by hand with the names of the jurors, not normally amounting to as many as 18 so there were crowns with no names but I've never seen a name with no crown.
Was there such a man as Henry Dawkes Lechmere? Just thinking out loud why 'Lechmere' has no forename but has got a crown but Henry Dawkes has no crown.
More interestingly, why was the name Lechmere cut off in the original post?

[Sam Flynn]

"Henry Dawkes Lechmere" was me being naughty, Debs

[Debra A]

"Henry Dawkes Lechmere" was me being naughty, Debs

You're such a joker, Gareth.

[Wickerman]

I dont know if this has been posted and discussed previous but it is interesting nevertheless as to where Kelly`s second name came from

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor, have you not read the testimonies of the Kelly Inquest?

[Wickerman]

I have no idea except that I thought normally there were 18 lines with crowns stamped at the end of the line and these were filled in by hand with the names of the jurors,........

My copy of the original only shows 12 crowns in three columns of four. Plus one for the Coroner & one for the foreman (which was G Gieselme in the copy posted by Trevor).
Above these names the sentence mentions "names and seals" of the Juror's.
May represent a spot of wax with the crown pressed into it, to make a seal?

[Debra A]

Thanks Jon.
I originally thought all the original hand written versions of these forms had 18 lines (plus the two for Coroner and foreman you mention) in three rows of six, all with a crown printed at the end and the jurors names penned in, but checking again I can see some have 15 or 12 lines too.

[Wickerman]

Hi Debs.

The copy I have does not show a seal for the last name - Henry Dawkes, which is the 13th name (Juror), and is appended at the bottom of the first column (below John Harvey). There is a line drawn for Dawkes, but no crown printed against the line.
Which suggests to me there were only three columns of four (12) on the original, the line must have been added for this one juror, me thinks.

It's quite possible different counties created different forms. The one you saw with 18 lines may have been used in a different county?

[Debra A]

Hi Debs.

The copy I have does not show a seal for the last name - Henry Dawkes, which is the 13th name (Juror), and is appended at the bottom of the first column (below John Harvey). There is a line drawn for Dawkes, but no crown printed against the line.
Which suggests to me there were only three columns of four (12) on the original, the line must have been added for this one juror, me thinks.

It's quite possible different counties created different forms. The one you saw with 18 lines may have been used in a different county?

Hi Jon,
No, they were all Middlesex from 1888 and I saw them all courtesy of Dave O' Flaherty.

[packers stem]

Would one be a 'reserve' in case of sickness during the inquest ?

[packers stem]

Incidentally , how did they choose jurors back then , anybody know ?
Property owners , electoral register ?
The names don't suggest anything compatible with the demographics of the area ...

[Debra A]

Incidentally , how did they choose jurors back then , anybody know ?
Property owners , electoral register ?
The names don't suggest anything compatible with the demographics of the area ...

Jury members usually came from one or two streets in the area the inquest was conducted.
There seems to be a fair few names from Shoreditch High Street there.

[packers stem]

Jury members usually came from one or two streets in the area the inquest was conducted.
There seems to be a fair few names from Shoreditch High Street there.

Thanks Debs
Seems like Shop keepers /property owners then rather than a representative cross section of the general public like today . I suppose sending someone out to go and knock on business owners over a small area makes sense , quick and easy to arrange
Stride's inquest started on Oct 1st so they must have had a quick method of setting the wheels in motion

[John Savage]

Hi Debs

I believe the jurors would have been summoned personally by the coroner's officer. He would probably have used the electoral register or possibly local council records of ratepayers.

Basically throughout the 19th century the right to vote was based on the ownership or tenancy of property. To explain this in more detail I have taken the below from the internet:

"The 1867 Reform Act extended the borough franchise to all householders subject to a one year residential qualification and the payment of rates, and to lodgers occupying lodgings worth £10 per year subject also to one year’s residence. It extended the county franchise by including those occupying land worth £12 per year or owning land worth £5 a year. As a result, representation was increased for industrial centres and decreased for the smaller towns. Women and poor men were still denied the right to vote in Parliamentary elections. The passing of the Reform Act of 1867 doubled the electorate in Wales and England from one million to two million. However, there were about 30 million people in Britain at this time.
The 1884 Reform Act extended the 1867/68 householder and lodger franchise for boroughs/burghs to counties and created an occupation franchise for those with lands or tenements worth £12 a year. For the first time the franchise was substantially uniform in constituencies throughout Great Britain. This meant the vote was further extended across the male working class population"Rgds
John