PC did not pass Dorset St. in his beat

[Sam Flynn]

Stop pedaling this nonsense wick and misleading people. Sarah Lewis never saw couple go in the court. She saw them go up the street.

Quite correct. She saw the couple "further on" - almost certainly "further on in Dorset Street" - as she spotted Mr Wideawake standing in Dorset Street at the point she herself entered Miller's Court.

"When I went into the court, opposite the lodging-house I saw a man with a wideawake... The man was looking up the court; he seemed to be waiting or looking for some one. Further on there was a man and woman - the latter being in drink. There was nobody in the court." (Lewis's inquest testimony, Daily Telegraph, 14th November)

"When I went in the court I saw a man opposite the court in Dorset Street standing alone by the lodging house... another young man with a woman passed along - the man standing in the street was looking up the court as if waiting for someone to come out" (Lewis's inquest testimony, official record)

Against those, we have one (?) report in the Daily News that says the couple entered the court, but this is almost certainly a garbled version. It was Lewis herself who was entering the court at the time, as the above two versions clearly indicate. Wideawake and the couple she saw "further on" were undoubtedly in Dorset Street.

[Kattrup]

I'm saying it was possible .Was it official (in the records,have not come across any) that the PC indeed passed Dorset St. in his beat?

Also it's just hard for me to believe that at 11:00 PM to 3:00 AM,the PC or PC's, if a beat changed.missed all these incidents,Kelly and Blotchy walking in Dorset St. to Millers Court at around 11:45 pm, Cox at 11:45 pm...12 am ...1 am -in and out (although a discrepancy with Prater)...3 am,Prater 1:00 - 1:20 am,Lewis at 2:30 am - and her sighting , the 2 couples - one on either side of Dorset St, the man standing across the court.So the times he passed by Dorset st. the street/street corners were empty,no couples or single man which would have been noteworthy .

And I suppose he was or his statement to his superiors was used to verify Hutch's statement because at 2:00 am to 3 am he must have passed by Dorset at least 2x.,and must have seen Hutch once at least.At least according to their initial belief that Hutch was trustworthy.


It's not established that it was Morton,just a possibilty.The name Henry Morton in the IPS illustration was randomly chosen?

I agree, as I wrote, since it's possible that he wasn't in place.

However, his absence at the inquest is not a valid argument, since there are equally convincing arguments explaining why he wasn't called. In fact, since his statement in IPN was more or less:"I was on duty all night and didn't see anything", why would they call him?

So to repeat, yes it's possible he wasn't there, but there's really no source stating he wasn't, so why should we think so?

You didn't just say that it was possible, you said it was your "contention" that he wasn't. I just don't think there's anything to support that idea?

And the name Henry Morton is not in the illustration? Just "L 63", which has been interpreted as PC 63L Henry Morton, who, however, served as PC already 1849.

[Abby Normal]

This point has been raised before. That one of the first actions of the CID in receiving Hutchinson's statement would have been to have the pocketbook records of the beat constables checked for any corroboration for what Hutchinson told them.
However, this was after the inquest concluded.

For the inquest, the Coroner selects the witness statements which are going to help him uncover the identity of the victim, and the where, when & by what means the victim met her death.
If the beat constables statement does not contribute towards either of those determinations then he may not be called. He will not be called simply to confirm the statement of another witness, this is an inquest not a trial.

It is possibly too much to expect the beat constable knew Mary Kelly by sight given the number of newly drafted constables in the area. And the issue of Kelly being out after midnight never arose.

Sarah Lewis saw a couple enter the passage while the loiterer was present, but she did not know if the female was Kelly, Lewis didn't know Kelly by sight. So, no beat constable will be called to confirm what Sarah Lewis said, it was not known at the time to have been significant.

Stop pedaling this nonsense wick and misleading people. Sarah Lewis never saw couple go in the court. She saw them go up the street.

[Varqm]

I understand it was an inquest and a different coroner too.The PC should have seen Hutch or a man standing across the court once, if a man was there they
would not have dismissed Hutchinson,if there was no man Hutch statement would have been dismissed,perhaps immediately..But if the PC did not pass Dorset St
then they would not have been able to tell and thus initially believing in Hutch then they dismissed him as they did not use him and used Lawende or Schwartz.
If for arguments sake the Seaside ID happened in Jan 1889 they were able to contact either one after a few months,why not years.The same would have
applied to Hutch. A trusted witness was better than a written report or a sketch.But enough of Hutch,I'm convinced he was not there.

"Sarah Lewis saw a couple enter the passage while the loiterer was present,"

No, up the street. Sarah did not say court or the passage going into it.

"It is possibly too much to expect the beat constable knew Mary Kelly by sight"

Only a sighting of a woman,couple or man would have helped or been significant, not anyone in particular.

[Wickerman]

And I suppose he was or his statement to his superiors was used to verify Hutch's statement because at 2:00 am to 3 am he must have passed by Dorset at least 2x.,and must have seen Hutch once at least.At least according to their initial belief that Hutch was trustworthy.

This point has been raised before. That one of the first actions of the CID in receiving Hutchinson's statement would have been to have the pocketbook records of the beat constables checked for any corroboration for what Hutchinson told them.
However, this was after the inquest concluded.

For the inquest, the Coroner selects the witness statements which are going to help him uncover the identity of the victim, and the where, when & by what means the victim met her death.
If the beat constables statement does not contribute towards either of those determinations then he may not be called. He will not be called simply to confirm the statement of another witness, this is an inquest not a trial.

It is possibly too much to expect the beat constable knew Mary Kelly by sight given the number of newly drafted constables in the area. And the issue of Kelly being out after midnight never arose.

Sarah Lewis saw a couple enter the passage while the loiterer was present, but she did not know if the female was Kelly, Lewis didn't know Kelly by sight. So, no beat constable will be called to confirm what Sarah Lewis said, it was not known at the time to have been significant.

[Varqm]

IPN not IPS.

[Varqm]

Hi varqm

I did not know that it had been established that 63L was Henry Morton? I may have missed it.

At any rate, it's possible the PC was absent, but I don't think his absence from the inquest can be used to argue that.

It's also as possible that the coroner did not call him because he had nothing to add - the witnesses at the inquest all added some info about Kelly's whereabouts - there were no time wasters; unlike the Eddowes' inquest you mention.

I'm saying it was possible .Was it official (in the records,have not come across any) that the PC indeed passed Dorset St. in his beat?

Also it's just hard for me to believe that at 11:00 PM to 3:00 AM,the PC or PC's, if a beat changed.missed all these incidents,Kelly and Blotchy walking in Dorset St. to Millers Court at around 11:45 pm, Cox at 11:45 pm...12 am ...1 am -in and out (although a discrepancy with Prater)...3 am,Prater 1:00 - 1:20 am,Lewis at 2:30 am - and her sighting , the 2 couples - one on either side of Dorset St, the man standing across the court.So the times he passed by Dorset st. the street/street corners were empty,no couples or single man which would have been noteworthy .

And I suppose he was or his statement to his superiors was used to verify Hutch's statement because at 2:00 am to 3 am he must have passed by Dorset at least 2x.,and must have seen Hutch once at least.At least according to their initial belief that Hutch was trustworthy.


It's not established that it was Morton,just a possibilty.The name Henry Morton in the IPS illustration was randomly chosen?

[Kattrup]

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning, if he was say 25 when he joined in 1849 he's o even 65 by '88. If e wasn't 20 he hasn't even hit 60.

No particular reasoning; it was my understanding that PCs routinely retired after 25 years, making 39 very unusual. Also, Henry Morton the PC appears regularly in Old Bailey until about the 1870s, I can't check at the moment but he stops appearing a longish time before 1888.

So nothing definite, I would just consider it very unlikely to be the same guy without further info

[Robert]

Over on the Forums Howard Brown discovered a constable 63L in a report from 1887. Given the year, this is almost certainly the PC seconded to H division.

The name of the deceased was actually William Augustus Downe in the death register. This is the only report that I can find, but it's possible that if a local paper reported the inquest, the policeman may have been named.

https://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=18750&page=2

[John G]

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning, if he was say 25 when he joined in 1849 he's o even 65 by '88. If e wasn't 20 he hasn't even hit 60.

But what was the mandatory retirement age in 1888? When my dad retired from the police force, about 20 years ago, it was 55.

[Robert]

The only Henry Morton in the Ancestry Met police records resigned in 1870 after 23 years in L division.

[GUT]

Thank you Monty.

Morton appears in the Old Bailey transcripts as 63L as early as 1849.

I would find it highly unlikely that he was still in the police force 39 years later.

Even though the man depicted is an old geezer

I just wondered since varqm mentioned it being him seemingly as an established fact.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning, if he was say 25 when he joined in 1849 he's o even 65 by '88. If e wasn't 20 he hasn't even hit 60.

[Kattrup]

Thank you Monty.

Morton appears in the Old Bailey transcripts as 63L as early as 1849.

I would find it highly unlikely that he was still in the police force 39 years later.

Even though the man depicted is an old geezer

I just wondered since varqm mentioned it being him seemingly as an established fact.

[Monty]

Morton is the only known name associated with that collar number, and he joined in the 1850s or sometime around then.

Collar numbers change frequently, upon on permanent transfer or restructuring.

However, to the point. Coroners call on the witnesses, this decided upon via witness statements. It would seem he didn't find any value in that particular statement.

Monty

[Kattrup]

Hi varqm

I did not know that it had been established that 63L was Henry Morton? I may have missed it.

At any rate, it's possible the PC was absent, but I don't think his absence from the inquest can be used to argue that.

It's also as possible that the coroner did not call him because he had nothing to add - the witnesses at the inquest all added some info about Kelly's whereabouts - there were no time wasters; unlike the Eddowes' inquest you mention.