PC did not pass Dorset St. in his beat

[David Orsam]

It could argued that pressure upon the Home Secretary re the murders was pretty high already. Queen Victoria sending coded messages with suggestions isn't an everyday occurrence.

I'd say more than just an interest actually. Political pressure from above is involved. He us being attacked constantly in the press too.

Yup. Squeaky bum time.

Yes there was pressure, for example, to offer a reward and he certainly did need to be briefed about any matters that might be raised in the House but, nevertheless, it was still not his job to solve the murders. The police, I believe, would only have provided reports on the details of the murders to the Home Office at their express request (e.g. the Swanson reports in October). Had there been a report about the Kelly murder to the Home Office, one would expect there to be a surviving record of it because the Home Office administration was much more advanced than the admin at Scotland Yard and we have a lot of Home Office documents.

[Varqm]

I'm really sorry, I just have difficulty following what you are saying.
What is the PC denying?
And what is it "which we know did not happen"?, I'm not sure there is anything we 'know' did not happen.

If the PC did notice a man standing opposite the court he is not likely to enter that in his pocketbook unless there was something very unusual about it.
People lounge around doorways all the time, so that in itself is not significant enough to make a note of.
So the chances are that if the PC did see this loiterer then he might not be able to describe him any better than Lewis did.

The memo by Abberline, which you seem to call his 'report' has no time written on it. This memo could have been written after he talked with the PC. The night shift for beat constables begins at 10 pm, so Abberline could have had him come in to see Abberline before he goes on duty. Where Abberline might have asked him about that Friday morning, and if he remembers anything that could confirm Hutchinson's story.
The press will never know about this meeting with Abberline, so we will never read about it.
This is all speculation, but it is based on reality.

I have explained enough in previous posts.

[Wickerman]

Regarding reports written.
Do you happen to know if D.S.Swanson wrote a report about the Dorset Street murder? (My memory fails me..sorry)


Phil

Hi Phil.

It's hard to imagine he didn't, he wrote reports on later murders, but his report on the Kelly murder, if there was one, has not survived.

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil.

It's hard to imagine he didn't, he wrote reports on later murders, but his report on the Kelly murder, if there was one, has not survived.

Thanks Jon..I thought Id not seen one.
"Eyes and ears" eh?


Phil

[Phil Carter]

"After I left the court I walked about all night, as the place where I usually sleep was closed. I am able to fix the time, as it was between ten and five minutes to two o'clock as I came by Whitechapel Church. When I left the corner of Miller's-court the clock struck three o'clock. One policeman went by the Commercial-street end of Dorset-street while I was standing there, but not one came down Dorset-street. I saw one man go into a lodging-house in Dorset-street, and no one else. I have been looking for the man all day."

George Hutchinson.



No policeman walked down Dorset Street all the time Hutchinson was there...
He didn't see one.

Now...we have a clear choice. Either that statement is true and no policeman walked down there...or
It is false.



Phil

[Monty]

Sir Charles Warren remained in post as Commissioner until 30th November 1888.

On the 1st December 1888 he made his final Police Order entry

Monty

[Simon Wood]

Hi Monty,

Nominally, perhaps.

Irish Times, 13th November 1888—

"This morning his books and papers were removed from the commissioners' office, and this was the first intimation in Whitehall place that he had relinquished his position."

Regards,

Simon

[David Orsam]

Hi Monty,

Nominally, perhaps.

Irish Times, 13th November 1888—

"This morning his books and papers were removed from the commissioners' office, and this was the first intimation in Whitehall place that he had relinquished his position."

I've already pointed out that he signed off on a Police Order on 21 November. And a letter was sent on his behalf to the Home Office about special policing the previous day.

[Monty]

It seems the Irish Times are being taken as a more reliable source than internal direct Metropolitan Police correspondence.

Monty

[David Orsam]

It's hard to imagine he didn't, he wrote reports on later murders, but his report on the Kelly murder, if there was one, has not survived.

That's a rather misleading statement Jon. Swanson's reports in respect of the later murders were routine reports, written because he replaced Abberline as the lead detective on the ground.

His 1888 reports were specially commissioned reports which would not otherwise have been written in a normal investigation.

Swanson's reports on the Nichols, Chapman and Stride murders were written on 19 October 1888 following a request from the Home Secretary on 13 October 1888 for "a report of all the measures which have been taken for the detection of the perpetrator of the Whitechapel Murders and the results". (Sir CW claimed he had already instructed Swanson to prepare such reports for him when he returned from holiday at the end of September but, as Swanson only appears to have started a report on the Tabram murder in September, the request from the Home Office seems to have prompted him into action).

It will be noted that Matthews was not asking for details of the murders. That was not the point of interest. He needed to know that the police were taking all appropriate steps to catch the murderer in order to reassure Parliament of this.

A further report by Swanson on the Eddowes murder on 6 November was the result of an urgent request from the Home Secretary for a briefing on the destruction of the writing on the wall before the resumption of Parliament.

So these reports were all special reports essentially written at the request of the Home Office (or, if not, the Commissioner). If the Home Office did not ask for a similar report on the Kelly murder they were not going to get one.

[David Orsam]

It seems the Irish Times are being taken as a more reliable source than internal direct Metropolitan Police correspondence.

I wouldn't mind but all it says it that his books and papers were removed from his office. It doesn't say that he walked out the door never to come back.

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

Without his books and papers, why would Warren have remained there?

Regards,

Simon

[David Orsam]

Without his books and papers, why would Warren have remained there?

Well firstly it doesn't say ALL his books and papers and secondly you need to answer the question of how he managed to insert an order into police orders if he had left his office for good and how he managed to direct Colonel Pearson to write a letter to the Home Office.

[Simon Wood]

Hi David,

No, I'll bet they left the Dummies Guide to Policing in place

Orders inserted and letters directed in his name.

Regards,

Simon

[Wickerman]

"After I left the court I walked about all night, as the place where I usually sleep was closed. I am able to fix the time, as it was between ten and five minutes to two o'clock as I came by Whitechapel Church. When I left the corner of Miller's-court the clock struck three o'clock. One policeman went by the Commercial-street end of Dorset-street while I was standing there, but not one came down Dorset-street. I saw one man go into a lodging-house in Dorset-street, and no one else. I have been looking for the man all day."

George Hutchinson.



No policeman walked down Dorset Street all the time Hutchinson was there...
He didn't see one.

Now...we have a clear choice. Either that statement is true and no policeman walked down there...or
It is false.

Phil

Hi Phil.

Yes, it may be a simple as that, but, Hutchinson was not in Dorset street for the full 45 minutes. If you recall that same source which you quoted from above also informed us that Hutchinson went into the court.

"I went up the court and stayed there a couple of minutes, but did not see any light in the house or hear any noise."

Hutch went into the court and stood outside Kelly's room, watching & listening.
We all say "a couple of minutes" when we are not sure how long we mean, it could be five minutes.
I only mention this because that is all the time a constable needs to pass down Dorset street. He wouldn't see Hutchinson if he was up the court, and Hutch didn't see the constable.

I much prefer to accept a witness statement as given, unless it can be demonstrated that something said was false.