PC did not pass Dorset St. in his beat

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jon,

The most obvious thing here is that the policeman was not IN Dorset Street..but passed by at the Commercial Road End. I am not aware of the geographical details of the Dorset Street beat.. but can it not be that said policeman mentioned in the press story by Hutchinson was infact on a different beat ( a la Mitre Square) ?

Therefore without confirmation of the actual beat that included Dorset Street..we cannot say whether Hutchinson's policeman was PC 63L Rouse.

As regards Abberline.. we may not have to be privy to his sources..but it is highly likely..given other reports having such details passed on up the chain that it would be the norm to do so.
We must remember that the Dorset Street murder was the worst of atrocities. An even greater culmination of degredation through murder. Under the circumstances I feel that no report with Abberline's name under it would leave any detail out. The Home Secretary would be wanting rvery detail presented. Whomever did so. And the first step was Abberline's report to his superiors. They would demand a comprehensive overview of the whole evening. Because one of them had to pass it on to the Home Secretary. And remember..Warren was not around anymore..so who would pass the info on upwards. Assistant Commissioner Robert Anderson. Yes..those details would have been noted I feel.


Phil

[Darryl Kenyon]

According to Mary Cox, MJK was singing from around 11:45 pm to One am. We don't know if going into Millers Court was part of the beat bobbies route but i feel that going up the passage and shining his lantern into the court was a probability. If what Mary Cox is saying is true, and there is no reason to think otherwise, and the bobby took say thirty minutes to patrol his beat, wouldn't he also have heard Mary sing thus confirming she was still alive at say 12:45. Yet nothing, strange.

[Joshua Rogan]

...From Hutchinson's point of view, he didn't see a man, so he saw nobody, regardless how many women or children he saw...Society was totally the domain of the male.

Hmm....if that were the case, it's a wonder that Jack managed to find any victims!

[David Orsam]

The Home Secretary would be wanting rvery detail presented. Whomever did so. And the first step was Abberline's report to his superiors. They would demand a comprehensive overview of the whole evening. Because one of them had to pass it on to the Home Secretary. And remember..Warren was not around anymore..so who would pass the info on upwards. Assistant Commissioner Robert Anderson. Yes..those details would have been noted I feel.

Well don't forget Phil that Warren remained in his office for the rest of November.

And is there any evidence that the Home Secretary wanted "every detail" of the Kelly murder presented to him?

[Sam Flynn]

According to Mary Cox, MJK was singing from around 11:45 pm to One am. We don't know if going into Millers Court was part of the beat bobbies route but i feel that going up the passage and shining his lantern into the court was a probability

I wouldn't necessarily assume that the police would have been that thorough, though. I'm not implying any dereliction of duty on his part, by the way, it's just that it would have been impractical for him to cover every base.

[Joshua Rogan]

I wouldn't necessarily assume that the police would have been that thorough, though. I'm not implying any dereliction of duty on his part, by the way, it's just that it would have been impractical for him to cover every base.

There must have been times the patrolling PC did enter the court - didn't Mrs Cox agree that the footsteps she heard could have been a policeman?
Plus Maurice Lewis cut short his gambling when someone spotted a PC in Dorset St.

[Sam Flynn]

There must have been times the patrolling PC did enter the court

Quite possibly so, but perhaps not every time.

[Joshua Rogan]

Quite possibly so, but perhaps not every time.

True enough. Also, Cox might have been being sarcastic...

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon,

The most obvious thing here is that the policeman was not IN Dorset Street..but passed by at the Commercial Road End.

Yes, then that would tie in with the statement given by Hutchinson.
Except that the IPN credits the constable with saying that he heard nothing. Well, of course he would hear nothing if he was way off in Commercial street. That claim only makes sense if the constable was patrolling Dorset street, so we are really no wiser as to what beat 63 L was on that night.
The IPN should have provided a paragraph concerning constable 63 L, if only to put that "I heard nothing" into some kind of context.

I am not aware of the geographical details of the Dorset Street beat.. but can it not be that said policeman mentioned in the press story by Hutchinson was infact on a different beat ( a la Mitre Square) ?

All the policemen at Mitre Square were City police, they only wore numbers. The 63 L is certainly a Met. ID, so no, he was not involved in the Mitre Square case.

Therefore without confirmation of the actual beat that included Dorset Street..we cannot say whether Hutchinson's policeman was PC 63L Rouse.

Yes, we are being led by Hutchinson's statement concerning the PC in Commercial street. If this is not the same PC, then why did the IPN introduce him?

As regards Abberline.. we may not have to be privy to his sources..but it is highly likely..given other reports having such details passed on up the chain that it would be the norm to do so.

I would say not, that it wasn't normal to do so, for the reason's already given.
Where is all the detail from the inquest? Abberline doesn't provide any, yet he begins his report with that subject.
Files contain the detail, reports merely give updates for anything new, and a summary for anything ongoing.

We must remember that the Dorset Street murder was the worst of atrocities. An even greater culmination of degredation through murder. Under the circumstances I feel that no report with Abberline's name under it would leave any detail out. The Home Secretary would be wanting rvery detail presented. Whomever did so. And the first step was Abberline's report to his superiors. They would demand a comprehensive overview of the whole evening. Because one of them had to pass it on to the Home Secretary. And remember..Warren was not around anymore..so who would pass the info on upwards. Assistant Commissioner Robert Anderson. Yes..those details would have been noted I feel.


Phil

The case file is available for any official to review if he needs to know 'details' on any aspect of the case.

[Wickerman]

Hmm....if that were the case, it's a wonder that Jack managed to find any victims!

I think you have it backwards, I'm not saying there were no women on the street, but unless you are talking about one specific woman, like Hutch was with Kelly, or several witnesses were with Stride, then any other women were just background noise.

[Phil Carter]

Well don't forget Phil that Warren remained in his office for the rest of November.

And is there any evidence that the Home Secretary wanted "every detail" of the Kelly murder presented to him?

Hello David

The Irish Times 13th November confirms my comments.
Re Warren having removed himself from official duty from his office.

Regarding what the Hone Secretary wanted, given the enormity of the atrocity and the escalation of the murders, I would have thought it quite obvious the Home Secretary was very much interested. I do believe he had a visitor from Whitechapel the next evening after the murder..Doctor Phillips? This is an indication of the severity of the issue.


Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jon,

Thank you for the reply.

I didn't say PC 63L was involved in Mitre Square.
I meant that like Mitre Square, there was a beat policeman near that did not enter Dorset Street.

Regarding reports written.
Do you happen to know if D.S.Swanson wrote a report about the Dorset Street murder? (My memory fails me..sorry)


Phil

[David Orsam]

Hello David

The Irish Times 13th November confirms my comments.
Re Warren having removed himself from official duty from his office.

Hi Phil,

Does the Irish Times have anything to say on how Charles Warren signed off on Police Orders regarding Income Tax on 21 November 1888? Also how a letter came to be written to the Home Secretary on 20 November 1888 in which it was stated that "the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis has to transmit, for the information of the Secretary of State, the accompanying return showing the numbers of officers of each rank who will probably be employed at the cost of the special vote between the 1st March 1889 and the 25th February 1890"?

The letter was signed by Colonel Pearson "for the Commissioner".

Of course, to the extent that Warren was not around during November, Col Pearson would have deputised for him in the usual way.

[David Orsam]

Regarding what the Hone Secretary wanted, given the enormity of the atrocity and the escalation of the murders, I would have thought it quite obvious the Home Secretary was very much interested.l

Being interested is one thing, being informed of "every detail" is another. It wasn't the Home Secretary's job to solve the murders.

[Phil Carter]

Being interested is one thing, being informed of "every detail" is another. It wasn't the Home Secretary's job to solve the murders.

It could argued that pressure upon the Home Secretary re the murders was pretty high already. Queen Victoria sending coded messages with suggestions isn't an everyday occurrence.

I'd say more than just an interest actually. Political pressure from above is involved. He is being attacked constantly in the press too.

Yup. Squeaky bum time.



Phil