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PC did not pass Dorset St. in his beat

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    Stop pedaling this nonsense wick and misleading people. Sarah Lewis never saw couple go in the court. She saw them go up the street.
    Quite correct. She saw the couple "further on" - almost certainly "further on in Dorset Street" - as she spotted Mr Wideawake standing in Dorset Street at the point she herself entered Miller's Court.

    "When I went into the court, opposite the lodging-house I saw a man with a wideawake... The man was looking up the court; he seemed to be waiting or looking for some one. Further on there was a man and woman - the latter being in drink. There was nobody in the court." (Lewis's inquest testimony, Daily Telegraph, 14th November)

    "When I went in the court I saw a man opposite the court in Dorset Street standing alone by the lodging house... another young man with a woman passed along - the man standing in the street was looking up the court as if waiting for someone to come out" (Lewis's inquest testimony, official record)

    Against those, we have one (?) report in the Daily News that says the couple entered the court, but this is almost certainly a garbled version. It was Lewis herself who was entering the court at the time, as the above two versions clearly indicate. Wideawake and the couple she saw "further on" were undoubtedly in Dorset Street.
    Last edited by Sam Flynn; 07-27-2017, 05:56 AM.
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
      Stop pedaling this nonsense wick and misleading people. Sarah Lewis never saw couple go in the court. She saw them go up the street.
      Read it Abby, slowly...it's in plain English.

      " I also saw a man and a woman who had no hat on and were the worse for drink pass up the court."


      Obviously there was no-one in the court when Lewis got there, the couple went indoors.
      Regards, Jon S.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Varqm View Post
        I understand it was an inquest and a different coroner too.The PC should have seen Hutch or a man standing across the court once, if a man was there they
        would not have dismissed Hutchinson,.....
        Yes, but this was after the inquest, and the point you seem to be missing is that the press were still reporting, as far as on the 19th Nov. that the authorities were pursuing the Hutchinson suspect seven days after he gave them his story.

        This idea of him being dismissed (on the 15th) does not stand up to scrutiny, it's bogus.

        Lawende was the only witness who had a permanent residence and ran a business, so he was easy to locate years after the fact.

        Any 'mystery' is the creation of the posters themselves in pushing this theory.
        Regards, Jon S.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
          Read it Abby, slowly...it's in plain English.

          " I also saw a man and a woman who had no hat on and were the worse for drink pass up the court."


          Obviously there was no-one in the court when Lewis got there, the couple went indoors.
          read it slowly wick:

          its obviously a garbled press version that one paper got wrong. probably confusing it with cox statement.

          Lewis official inquest testimony:

          "When I went in the court I saw a man opposite the court in Dorset Street standing alone by the lodging house... another young man with a woman passed along - the man standing in the street was looking up the court as if waiting for someone to come out"


          nothing about entering the court.

          get over it.
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
            "I also saw a man and a woman who had no hat on and were the worse for drink pass up the court."
            In the same newspaper report, a mere two sentences before that one, we find that there was a man standing in Mary Kell's doorway:

            "In the doorway of the deceased's house I saw a man in a wideawake hat standing. He was not tall, but a stout-looking man"

            Why haven't we heard more about this guy? He's either the most overlooked prime suspect of all time, or the Daily News screwed up Sarah Lewis's testimony. I wonder which of those options has the most chance of being true?
            Obviously there was no-one in the court when Lewis got there, the couple went indoors.
            Apart from yer man, standing in Kelly's doorway.
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

            Comment


            • #21
              Don't these encyclopedia salesmen know when to give up?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                In the same newspaper report, a mere two sentences before that one, we find that there was a man standing in Mary Kell's doorway:

                "In the doorway of the deceased's house I saw a man in a wideawake hat standing. He was not tall, but a stout-looking man"

                Why haven't we heard more about this guy? He's either the most overlooked prime suspect of all time, or the Daily News screwed up Sarah Lewis's testimony. I wonder which of those options has the most chance of being true?
                Apart from yer man, standing in Kelly's doorway.
                Hi Sam

                In the same newspaper report, a mere two sentences before that one, we find that there was a man standing in Mary Kell's doorway:

                "In the doorway of the deceased's house I saw a man in a wideawake hat standing. He was not tall, but a stout-looking man"
                I wonder if hutch read this and included in his(changed) aman story as himself when HE went and talked to the press?
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Robert View Post
                  Don't these encyclopedia salesmen know when to give up?
                  That'd be the Encyclopedia Britannia in ten bells... sorry, volumes.
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                    I wonder if hutch read this and included in his(changed) aman story as himself when HE went and talked to the press?
                    Hutchinson? I'd best not go there, Abby! I'm just happy to have demonstrated that the Daily News version of Sarah Lewis' testimony is garbled and unreliable.
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                      Hutchinson? I'd best not go there, Abby! I'm just happy to have demonstrated that the Daily News version of Sarah Lewis' testimony is garbled and unreliable.
                      yes of course. LOL. thanks!
                      "Is all that we see or seem
                      but a dream within a dream?"

                      -Edgar Allan Poe


                      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                      -Frederick G. Abberline

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                        read it slowly wick:

                        its obviously a garbled press version that one paper got wrong. probably confusing it with cox statement.

                        Lewis official inquest testimony:

                        "When I went in the court I saw a man opposite the court in Dorset Street standing alone by the lodging house... another young man with a woman passed along - the man standing in the street was looking up the court as if waiting for someone to come out"


                        nothing about entering the court.

                        get over it.
                        Court records for inquests were recorded in long hand, the press used short hand, this is why the press versions always contain more detail than the court version.
                        But you've been around long enough to know this.
                        Regards, Jon S.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                          In the same newspaper report, a mere two sentences before that one, we find that there was a man standing in Mary Kell's doorway:

                          "In the doorway of the deceased's house I saw a man in a wideawake hat standing. He was not tall, but a stout-looking man"

                          Why haven't we heard more about this guy? He's either the most overlooked prime suspect of all time, or the Daily News screwed up Sarah Lewis's testimony. I wonder which of those options has the most chance of being true?
                          Apart from yer man, standing in Kelly's doorway.
                          What did Hutchinson say?

                          "I went up the court and stayed there a couple of minutes, but did not see any light in the house or hear any noise."

                          Ignoring that too are we?


                          Anyhow, the topic was about constable 63 L, and Hutchinson mentioned a constable in Commercial st., who passed the end of Dorset street.

                          We don't know if that was 63 L, as he did not walk through Dorset street, so perhaps that was not his beat.
                          Why the IPN has constable 63 L saying that he heard nothing is odd as no-one in Commercial street could be expected to have heard anything from 125+ feet away. That comment would only make sense if it came from a constable who did walk through Dorset street.
                          So, perhaps 63 L is not the constable mentioned by Hutchinson at all.

                          There is no associated story in the IPN from that constable, so why his portrait is included on the cover only adds more questions than answers.
                          Regards, Jon S.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                            Court records for inquests were recorded in long hand, the press used short hand, this is why the press versions always contain more detail than the court version.
                            Out of interest, does anyone know how widespread the use of shorthand was among the journalists of that time? Were all of them trained in it?

                            (I'm used to taking detailed notes at work, but never learned shorthand. Nowadays I use a laptop, but it was pen and paper in the old days.)
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                              What did Hutchinson say?

                              "I went up the court and stayed there a couple of minutes, but did not see any light in the house or hear any noise."

                              Ignoring that too are we?
                              I'm not ignoring anything. In every other report, and in her inquest statement, Lewis places wideawake man in the street, opposite the lodging-house, outside the lodging-house, and looking into the court. Not in the court, and certainly not in Kelly's doorway. Let's face it, the Daily News report of Lewis's testimony is a complete crock which needs to be ditched, together with the erroneous belief that Lewis saw a couple precede her into Miller's Court.
                              Anyhow, the topic was about constable 63 L, and Hutchinson mentioned a constable in Commercial st., who passed the end of Dorset street.
                              Indeed. I'll let you get on with it.
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Constable 63L

                                In Police Orders of 26 March 1889, P.C. 63L is stated to be Constable Rouse (who was then on the sick list).

                                A little bit of digging, shows that this was Henry Rouse who joined the Met Police in L Division on 14 August 1882, with warrant number 67055, and resigned on 11 May 1889. Police Orders for 11 May 1889 give his conduct for his certificate as "Very Good".

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