Was Barnett guilty after all?

[Abby Normal]

I thought a polygon was a dead parrot.

That was bad

[Pierre]

Mary Kelly's age certainly seems immaterial unless it can be shown otherwise.

c.d.

The priority of the killer was middle aged women.

Kelly was an exception.

The reason for the exception was given by the murder site.

[miss marple]

Its nonsensical to say the killer targetted' middle age women'. I would have thought age was the last thing on his mind. Even today its very hard to tell how old a woman is. I have met women approaching forty who I thought were ten years younger.In the East End a 20 year old would look forty if they had very hard lives and lost some teeth.
All the victims looked younger than their ages. Polly Nicholls had a very fine figure. To keep looking young in such circumstances was quite an achievement but these women were not born into extreme poverty and had had periods of comparative comfort in their lives. If a woman had a good skin, few winkles and good figure its impossible to tell how old she is.

Mary Kelly may have been thirty. McCarthy thought she was. The point is she had a room and went back on the game after Joe left. The killer seemed to targetted available women on the game.

Miss Marple

[Robert]

Miss Marple, how can you possibly know that Polly Nichols had a very fine figure?

[Pierre]

Its nonsensical to say the killer targetted' middle age women'. I would have thought age was the last thing on his mind. Even today its very hard to tell how old a woman is. I have met women approaching forty who I thought were ten years younger.In the East End a 20 year old would look forty if they had very hard lives and lost some teeth.
All the victims looked younger than their ages. Polly Nicholls had a very fine figure. To keep looking young in such circumstances was quite an achievement but these women were not born into extreme poverty and had had periods of comparative comfort in their lives. If a woman had a good skin, few winkles and good figure its impossible to tell how old she is.

Mary Kelly may have been thirty. McCarthy thought she was. The point is she had a room and went back on the game after Joe left. The killer seemed to targetted available women on the game.

Miss Marple

Hi,

So if it is "nonsensical", how come the women murdered out on the streets/in a yard were all middle aged women, except for Kelly?

Pierre

[Harry D]

Hi,

So if it is "nonsensical", how come the women murdered out on the streets/in a yard were all middle aged women, except for Kelly?

Pierre

Because Mary Kelly was younger and more attractive? Had she been a middle-aged frump, McCarthy might have turfed her out ages ago.

[Darryl Kenyon]

How do we know that Mary owed six/seven weeks rent ? We only have McCarthy's word for that He could have been hoping for a relative to turn up to pay for the damage to the room or to pocket a few extra shillings. And how do we know Mary was 25 ? She could have told Barnett that to make her seem more attractive IE younger woman than she was

[miss marple]

This is completely subjective, you would not know the ages of these women, if you saw them in the street neither would the ripper. All you would see is a figure and a face in shadow. The attacks were in darkness. They were picked on because of their vunerablity, it was late at night, some were drunk' eg Eddowes. Age was not such a big deal, it was impossible to tell ages, and age was a fluid concept as from census records people lied about their ages. Some young women looked middle aged as I have seen from Victorian criminal photos and vice versa. Its the vunerabilty of the women that matters.

Miss Marple

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I feel the main reason McCarthy never kicked Mary out was compassion, if not his , his wife's , he knew that she felt pity towards this girl[ Kelly] and I would say Mary knew this , and played on it to keep a roof over her head.
It was only the previous day , the two women were talking about the'The Ripper' been rife in that area.
If Mr McCarthy turned her out, and she fell foul of the killer, he did not want that on his conscious or indeed for any of his tenants to be a victim.
Regards Richard.

[MrBarnett]

Its nonsensical to say the killer targetted' middle age women'. I would have thought age was the last thing on his mind. Even today its very hard to tell how old a woman is. I have met women approaching forty who I thought were ten years younger.In the East End a 20 year old would look forty if they had very hard lives and lost some teeth.
All the victims looked younger than their ages. Polly Nicholls had a very fine figure. To keep looking young in such circumstances was quite an achievement but these women were not born into extreme poverty and had had periods of comparative comfort in their lives. If a woman had a good skin, few winkles and good figure its impossible to tell how old she is.

Mary Kelly may have been thirty. McCarthy thought she was. The point is she had a room and went back on the game after Joe left. The killer seemed to targetted available women on the game.

Miss Marple

Polly had had a hard life and had some teeth missing.

This description of her:

Age - 42 (looked younger)
Complexion - dark
Hair - Brown
Eyes - Brown

Height - 5' 2"

"Scar on forehead and several teeth missing."


is remarkably similar to this description of a woman who carried out a vicious assault on Henry Tomkins' mother:

Age - 37
Complexion - Sallow
Hair - Brown
Eyes - Brown

Height - 5' 1 1/2"

"2 cuts left of forehead and corner of left eye. Lost several front teeth"

[Elamarna]

Polly had had a hard life and had some teeth missing.

This description of her:

Age - 42 (looked younger)
Complexion - dark
Hair - Brown
Eyes - Brown

Height - 5' 2"

"Scar on forehead and several teeth missing."


is remarkably similar to this description of a woman who carried out a vicious assault on Henry Tomkins' mother:

Age - 37
Complexion - Sallow
Hair - Brown
Eyes - Brown

Height - 5' 1 1/2"

"2 cuts left of forehead and corner of left eye. Lost several front teeth"

Hi Gary,
Where is that report of an attack on Tomkins mother from?



Steve

[MrBarnett]

Hi Gary,
Where is that report of an attack on Tomkins mother from?



Steve

Hi Steve,

Here's the press report (post 736 on the JTRF Harrison, Barber thread). The description came from Amelia Dobson's criminal record. I'll see if I can dig that out.

A bit off-topic here - sorry.






Gary

[miss marple]

According to Tom Wescott in Ripper Confidential, Polly was a bit of a brawler [ [perhaps that's how she kept her figure!] She was found 'wandering abroad' and sleeping in Tralfagar Sq in Oct 1887. The report in the Standard Oct 26th says she was very disorderly and the worse woman in the square. She was also mentioned unnamed in The Woman's Signal,1894 as one of the most violent of the class and who secreted table knives and had been imprisoned for attempting to stab an official before relapsing and becoming the first victim of the ripper.
Of course this sounds like a made up story by the signal. Its a bit too neat. Unless one can find Polly in prison! They may have been referring to Tabram anyway or just hooey.
Violent assaults of the manchester kind were happening everywhere and Polly was in London.

Miss Marple

[MrBarnett]

According to Tom Wescott in Ripper Confidential, Polly was a bit of a brawler [ [perhaps that's how she kept her figure!] She was found 'wandering abroad' and sleeping in Tralfagar Sq in Oct 1887. The report in the Standard Oct 26th says she was very disorderly and the worse woman in the square. She was also mentioned unnamed in The Woman's Signal,1894 as one of the most violent of the class and who secreted table knives and had been imprisoned for attempting to stab an official before relapsing and becoming the first victim of the ripper.
Of course this sounds like a made up story by the signal. Its a bit too neat. Unless one can find Polly in prison! They may have been referring to Tabram anyway or just hooey.
Violent assaults of the manchester kind were happening everywhere.

Miss Marple

Indeed they were, Miss M, but not always to HT's mum. I'm aware that Polly was in London, as was the extended Tomkins family in 1888.

[Joshua Rogan]

Polly had had a hard life and had some teeth missing.

All the C5 had some missing teeth, according to various press reports.....one even records Kate as having 16 teeth missing.