The Mary Jane Kelly Project-University of Leicester

[GUT]

Not exactly pertinent to The Kelly question,but here in Adelaide,South Australia,an attempt is being made to exhume "The Somerton Man" with a view to extract DNA samples,and a possible identification.So far permission has been refused.

Yeah I think unless they come up with a suggestion as to what (who?) they hope to match to permission will continue to be denied.

[Mayerling]

An impossible ask, but what if the body of Keith Bennett could be found!

Or maybe that missing champion race horse from the 1980s.

[DirectorDave]

The report makes fascinating reading, and will probably take a few readings to digest.

So... no conclusive evidence that MJK and Elizabeth Weston Davies are the same person any evidence is just circumstantial or conjecture.

And... The possibility of finding MJK's grave or remains are very, very unlikely...if any remains exist.

So there won't be any digging...good!

Let's concentrate on finding her in life...and let her rest in peace in death.

[MsWeatherwax]

I know I'm probably in the minority, but I'm terribly sad about this news.

I think that DNA and isotope testing was probably the last opportunity to get any scientific validation of who Mary actually was in life - although the work that has been done by genuine researchers so far has been incredible, there is the very real possibility that her entire back story was completely made up. If that is the case, the closest we will ever come to knowing who she was is by skull reconstruction and isotope analysis.

I realise that this is probably a bit over sentimental to a lot of people, but it would have been nice to think that when people Google 'Mary Jane Kelly' in the future, the highest result in the search rankings would be a scientific reconstruction of her undamaged face, rather than what was left of her after her killer had finished with her.

I always thought that she was laid to rest in a coffin with a brass name plate on it - I haven't had a chance to read the whole report yet, I'm assuming that they do not think that this has survived?

[Spider]

And the point to this is ........ .😁

[miss marple]

She's in a common grave that was reused several times. There could be fifty bodies in it. Impossible, never going to happen and has been rejected as an idea.
Professor Caroline Wilkinson, who does amazing facial reconstructions. She did Richard 111 and the BBC History cold cases could have a.go at Mary's face. Years ago she did them in clay but now does them on computer. She might be able to do something with the photos.


Miss Marple

[Mayerling]

I know I'm probably in the minority, but I'm terribly sad about this news.

I think that DNA and isotope testing was probably the last opportunity to get any scientific validation of who Mary actually was in life - although the work that has been done by genuine researchers so far has been incredible, there is the very real possibility that her entire back story was completely made up. If that is the case, the closest we will ever come to knowing who she was is by skull reconstruction and isotope analysis.

I realise that this is probably a bit over sentimental to a lot of people, but it would have been nice to think that when people Google 'Mary Jane Kelly' in the future, the highest result in the search rankings would be a scientific reconstruction of her undamaged face, rather than what was left of her after her killer had finished with her.

I always thought that she was laid to rest in a coffin with a brass name plate on it - I haven't had a chance to read the whole report yet, I'm assuming that they do not think that this has survived?

I can be just as sentimental as you can - I'd love to see a photo of the normal face of Mary Jane Kelly. To this day, even after looking at "horror" photos as far back as survivors of Andersonville Prison in the American Civil War, and Nazi Concentration Camp victims, I still think the two photos of Mary are the worst atrocity pictures I've ever seen.

I think I read the brass plate was on the coffin, but in the 129 years since Mary's burial, the wooden coffin might have collapsed (especially if her grave was in a mass burial grave) due to age, rot, weight of earth on the sides of the coffin. In that case any brass plate might have survived but fallen about anywhere in that pit of corpses.

Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

"Members of the University of Leicester team who undertook genealogical and demographic research in relation to the discovery of the mortal remains of King Richard III have now been involved in a new project to identify the last known victim of Jack the Ripper—Mary Jane Kelly.

The researchers were commissioned by author Patricia Cornwell, renowned for her meticulous research, to examine the feasibility of finding the exact burial location and the likely condition and survival of her remains. This was done as a precursor to possible DNA analysis in a case surrounding her true identity following contact with Wynne Weston-Davies who believes that Mary Jane Kelly was actually his great aunt, Elizabeth Weston Davies."
Forensic Magazine article

http://www.forensicmag.com/news/2017/03/researchers-new-project-identify-jack-rippers-last-known-victim

University of Leicester's Press Release

http://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/features/features-2017/mary-jane-kelly

PDF of the full 27 page report

http://www2.le.ac.uk/departments/genetics/people/king/reports/MaryJaneKellyProjectFeb2017.pdf

JM

I have to say that I'm intrigued by the storyline, and how it would dot many of the "I's" in this investigation. The most preposterous claim in the story, for me, is that the previous murders were to "cover up" the murder of the intended victim. I would like for once for someone to stick to try and solving just one of these murders, instead of all of them in "one clean sweep".

[Robert]

There might be some stitches left - there must have been a terrific amount of stitching - unless the stitches have decomposed. But how could one tell to which skeleton - if any survive - the stitches belonged?

In the old days patients had to go to hospital to have stitches removed. I think the modern ones just sort of melt away.

[Patrick S]

There might be some stitches left - there must have been a terrific amount of stitching - unless the stitches have decomposed. But how could one tell to which skeleton - if any survive - the stitches belonged?

In the old days patients had to go to hospital to have stitches removed. I think the modern ones just sort of melt away.

As someone with a great deal of experience, I'm aware that these days some stitches dissolve, some do not. After nearly cutting my finger off with a pair of pruning shears, I got non-dissolving stitches that I removed myself. After getting cracked on the head with a 2x4 I was stitched up, and those stitches DID dissolve. I had a pin inserted to repair a broken metacarpal. After the pin came out they stitched it. I had those removed at the doc's. I completely tore my triceps tendon off the bone. The stitches used to sew up the tissue after surgery had to be removed by the surgeon. The Kevlar sutures used to reattached the tendon are still in there and always will be. The screws used to anchor tendon to the bone, however, dissolved after, I think, a few years.

[Jon Guy]

Kelly`s fifth and sixth vertebrae were deeply notched.

[Joshua Rogan]

If Mary was dug up and reburied in a common grave, I doubt that much more than skeletal remains would survive. Although you'd hope that these were parcelled up together, perhaps with the brass name plate from her coffin.
However, some of the bones might still show knife marks, especially the neck (the 5th and 6th vertebrae were deeply notched), which could be a means of initial identification.

[ohrocky]

I was somewhat surprised that Leicester University had got involved in this "project" to this extent. But then as Ms Cornwall has millions to burn, why not?

The three things that I learnt early on regarding MJK's grave were:

1) The grave marker (or memorial stone as I refer to it) is not where MJK was buried, and

2) There are no records of where MJK was actually buried.

3) MJK was buried in a communal plot that could have been reused

The cemetery is huge and as it is a Roman Catholic cemetery many of the grave markers / memorials are substantial. From the outset it must have been obvious that MJK's remains would be impossible to locate.

I also don't see that Weston-Davies has come anywhere close to putting together even the flimsiest case that his ancestor and MJK were one and the same. The closest tie I can see in the comparative is that both women were, at some point, prostitutes who liked to drink. That comparison could, I'm sure, be made with many hundreds, if not thousands, of women in the East End during the LVP.

I truly hope that some day we can learn more about MJK's life but with the extensive research already undertaken it does appear unlikely. If it does, it will come from previously undiscovered papers or maybe a stroke of luck.

At least MJK and the other residents of St Patrick's cemetery can Rest in Peace.

[Garza]

There might be some stitches left - there must have been a terrific amount of stitching - unless the stitches have decomposed. But how could one tell to which skeleton - if any survive - the stitches belonged?

In the old days patients had to go to hospital to have stitches removed. I think the modern ones just sort of melt away.

There would be knife scrapings on her thigh bones. As well has notches on her neck vertebrae. I think the skeleton could be easily identifiable, its just about finding it.

I know people think it humane to not disturb the bones of a person in rest, but what I think is more humane is giving a murder victim a name and a voice to share her life story with the world.

Its a shame the project is not going anywhere, but understandable.

Surely we should be able to create 3-d images of what is underground?

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Garza!

I dare say, that the best artists have made her face about as close as one can with modern methods.

Here is one example from youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNkvyBls3T0

One trouble is: Where to look for real relatives? I mean, she was so clever in covering her tracks, that no-one will ever know for sure about her real life.

All the best
Jukka