Any info on these women please?

[Joshua Rogan]

Here's brief bio on Elizabeth Prater:

Great stuff! I always thought the bio of Prater on the Witnesses page sounded a bit iffy. Probably should be updated

[Debra A]

Thanks Debra. Gotta read your article again.

Do you have your research on Julia V written down anywhere? I noticed a girl in the workhouse records recently who I thought was Julia's daughter and she was in trouble with the police but I didn't get chance to research it further. Do you have any information about that too? Cheers.

[MysterySinger]

I often wondered whether Caroline Maxwell mixed up MJK with someone else but I'm not sure that her statement of MJKs movements that morning tally with anything we know of Elizabeth Prater's movements. However, it would be really good, I think, to tie Maxwell down prior to what we're told in 1888.

Great article by the way in Ripperologist Debs. I don't think I've read it previously but must have picked up some of the points from your posts alongside my own research. I'm sure I found a work house record or settlement paper or something similar for an Elizabeth Prater that said her husband had been in prison. But I've always found the EP records to be confusing so you've done a good job in fleshing out and pinning down the detail as you have.

[Debra A]

Great stuff! I always thought the bio of Prater on the Witnesses page sounded a bit iffy. Probably should be updated

Thanks Josh. Chris got the right Prater family but the wrong generation. It does make more sense that Elizabeth was a young woman doesn't it? When we consider reports that Prater was waiting for her 'young man' at the entrance to the court and similar. It also adds to the question of how much McCarthy knew or was involved in the goings on at Miller's Court. Although Prater could have been waiting for her 'young man' in the sense it was a partner, it could be that she was waiting at the entrance for a client. Maybe she had pre-arranged a meeting or had it been set up by someone else? I assumed that MJK, Cox and Prater went out on to the streets to solicit and would do the deed on the streets or bring back clients who were willing to pay for that comfort but perhaps they stood at the entrance?

[Debra A]

I often wondered whether Caroline Maxwell mixed up MJK with someone else but I'm not sure that her statement of MJKs movements that morning tally with anything we know of Elizabeth Prater's movements. However, it would be really good, I think, to tie Maxwell down prior to what we're told in 1888.

Great article by the way in Ripperologist Debs. I don't think I've read it previously but must have picked up some of the points from your posts alongside my own research. I'm sure I found a work house record or settlement paper or something similar for an Elizabeth Prater that said her husband had been in prison. But I've always found the EP records to be confusing so you've done a good job in fleshing out and pinning down the detail as you have.

Thanks MS.
I also wondered if Maxwell mixed up the two women but as Prater appeared at the inquest and so did Maxwell she probably would have realised her mistake. There is a lot of similarity between the two women though in terms of some of the details of their histories that I found interesting as well as a similarity in looks that could have been just a coincidence caused by the illustrator. I also think it shows that other young women were in exactly the same position as MJK in the same area.

I haven't come across the reference to prison but one of the descendants of William Prater senior posted some interesting information about the family and some speculation about what happened to William junior. I can't remember if she mentioned prison though, I'll have to check that out, Thanks.

[MysterySinger]

Do you have your research on Julia V written down anywhere? I noticed a girl in the workhouse records recently who I thought was Julia's daughter and she was in trouble with the police but I didn't get chance to research it further. Do you have any information about that too? Cheers.

I just hold records on Ancestry. However, I do have a Lunacy Patient Admission Register record for a Rosina Ventorini being admitted to Bexley (?) on 7th November 1900 and discharged on 21st October 1903 (when she died).

The London Westminster Union Workhouse Discharge Records for 25th June 1881 show Charlotte Ventreney discharged "to Police". Does that tally?

[Debra A]

I just hold records on Ancestry. However, I do have a Lunacy Patient Admission Register record for a Rosina Ventorini being admitted to Bexley (?) on 7th November 1900 and discharged on 21st October 1903 (when she died).

The London Westminster Union Workhouse Discharge Records for 25th June 1881 show Charlotte Ventreney discharged "to Police". Does that tally?

That's the one I wondered about, the 'to police' entry. Is that Julia's daughter do you think? I didn't have time to check it out but did wonder and intended to check put newspaper reports to see if I could see anything else but I didn't manage to get around to it yet. I was just curious about what she had done.
You should consider writing your Venturney research up. It would be a useful and welcome addition to our knowledge of these women and their lives.

[MysterySinger]

Debra I think it highly likely that Charlotte is Julia's daughter and her young age may be the only reason she was passed to the Police (13). I'm unsure exactly what happened to her father - but it's possible he died in 1871 (or maybe went to Italy). In the 1871 census, Julia was living at the same address as her father along with her 2 daughters.

The question is what was Julia thinking if Charlotte is having to fend for herself by 1881 (if indeed that is the case)?

Strange thing is, I know Ashton Under Lyne and Mossley etc far better than I know Whitechapel lol.

[Debra A]

Debra I think it highly likely that Charlotte is Julia's daughter and her young age may be the only reason she was passed to the Police (13). I'm unsure exactly what happened to her father - but it's possible he died in 1871 (or maybe went to Italy). In the 1871 census, Julia was living at the same address as her father along with her 2 daughters.

The question is what was Julia thinking if Charlotte is having to fend for herself by 1881 (if indeed that is the case)?

Strange thing is, I know Ashton Under Lyne and Mossley etc far better than I know Whitechapel lol.

Thanks MS. Yes, you are probably right and she had been abandoned and so passed to police. I didn't think of that. Interesting stuff.

It's a small world! At the time I was researching this I used to go to Uppermill in Saddleworth regularly, not realising at the time that Mossley was only a couple of miles further down the road!

[Joshua Rogan]

In this thread Paddy has a little info on Julia/Lottie and daughters, posts #10 & 11

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=2478&page=2

Out of interest, I believe the legal age of consent in 1881 was 13 (raised to 16 in 1885) so maybe young Charlotte was making her own decisions. Possibly working already in service?

[MysterySinger]

Uppermill is a very nice place and Mossley is along the main road from there.

[Joshua Rogan]

There were several newspapers that reported McCarthy said MJK was 25 but looked 30. I don't have one to hand at present.

The Syracuse Herald 11 Nov carries (along with one or two others) an interview with "Mary Jane's pal" Mary, in which she says something similar;

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/syracuse_herald/18881111.html

"Though quarrelsome, Mary Jane was pretty before she was cut up, Mary said, and she was only twenty four, not thirty, as she looked; but she would fight, and did not care what sort of a place she lived in."

[Debra A]

Uppermill is a very nice place and Mossley is along the main road from there.

Thanks MS. I might pop there next time I visit.

[Debra A]

The Syracuse Herald 11 Nov carries (along with one or two others) an interview with "Mary Jane's pal" Mary, in which she says something similar;

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/syracuse_herald/18881111.html

"Though quarrelsome, Mary Jane was pretty before she was cut up, Mary said, and she was only twenty four, not thirty, as she looked; but she would fight, and did not care what sort of a place she lived in."

Thanks Joshua. I think there's a version that has McCarthy saying something similar about her age in an interview too. I don't remember seeing the additional details in that version before so thanks for that.

[DJA]

Perhaps our Mary Kelly was in fact a 29 year old Mary Ann Kelly who was baptized at Shoreditch Church,better known as St. Leonard's.
A visit to France with a wealthy gentleman,might have included a visit to Le Chabanais. This luxury brothel was run by Irish born Alexandrine Joanett AKA Madame Kelly.
Perhaps that was where Mary acquired a new middle name.