Millers court... A brothel?!

[Michael W Richards]

In a brothel the room would be made available by the service provider, perhaps charging a small fee, and the service provider would be paid a fee , usually based on a percentage of the fee collected by the brothel manager. Marys arrears seem to amount to a fee around 4d per night, which was the full price charged by doss houses.

[Joshua Rogan]

There was more than 3 or 4 prostitutes at millers court, the ones we know for certain are Mary Kelly, Elizabeth Prater, Maria Harvey, Mary Ann Cox, Julia Venturney. We know Mary let other girls stay with her too. The other women around there had 'morally suspect' jobs such as flower sellers and such.

Was Harvey definitely a prostitute?

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

Was Harvey definitely a prostitute?

Yes, she was one of the prostitutes who Mary let stay in her room causing Joe to leave her. We know at least two women who stayed with Mary were Maria Harvey and Julia Venturney, shortly after Joe left Mary they got their own rooms within millers court. It appears she was a 'laundress' as a part time job (possibly as her day job then prostitution was her night job) but then again a laundress was one of those 'shady' jobs for single women to have anyways so it could have just been a lie.

[Joshua Rogan]

Yes, she was one of the prostitutes who Mary let stay in her room causing Joe to leave her. We know at least two women who stayed with Mary were Maria Harvey and Julia Venturney, shortly after Joe left Mary they got their own rooms within millers court. It appears she was a 'laundress' as a part time job (possibly as her day job then prostitution was her night job) but then again a laundress was one of those 'shady' jobs for single women to have anyways so it could have just been a lie.

Well, by her own account she did stay in Mary's room, but not until after Joe had already left. And she wasn't moving into Miller's Court, she was moving out (and into New Court, further along Dorset St). The fact that she left clothes with Mary lends credence to her claim to be a laundress. The earnings for washing half a dozen items doesn't seem like it would be enough to keep body and soul together for long, mind, so it's possible she walked the streets, but I don't know of anything that definitely points to her being a prostitute, let alone proves it.

It's probable that Julia V was the prostitute who caused the split between Mary and Joe, but I'm unaware how long she'd lived in the court. Possibly she was moving in as Maria was moving out (perhaps even swapping rooms), but equally she may have 'had words with her husband' and needed a couple of days break.

[MsWeatherwax]

I know you didnt. The point you were making was knowing wether it was or wasn't a brothel doesnt get us any closer to knowing who Jack was. While that might be true, I was just saying identifying Jack wasnt the point of the thread. The point was to discuss this particular topic surrounding the case.

I have mentioned this before, but it seems pertinent to this thread. When discussing the reliability of witness statements, I think we should bear in mind that it's possible that many of the people who lived in and around the area lived on the cusp of legality a lot of the time.

Just as we see in impoverished communities today, people are happy to turn a blind eye to certain illegal activities (e.g. selling on stolen goods, fencing, counterfeiting) if it means that they or someone they know is getting a meal ticket for it. People are not necessarily honest if they might be incriminating themselves - and others may be prepared to back up their story if it means that they continue to benefit in some way.

[Michael W Richards]

Yes, she was one of the prostitutes who Mary let stay in her room causing Joe to leave her. We know at least two women who stayed with Mary were Maria Harvey and Julia Venturney, shortly after Joe left Mary they got their own rooms within millers court. It appears she was a 'laundress' as a part time job (possibly as her day job then prostitution was her night job) but then again a laundress was one of those 'shady' jobs for single women to have anyways so it could have just been a lie.

I believe for the purposes of investigation its important to note here that it would appear by the records remaining that Mary was in arrears to the tune of about 2 1/2 weeks, she had expressed fear of the streets in recent times, and she relied on Joe to bring her money, even after he left the room.

That would suggest that Mary had not been working regularly up until that time, which is relevant when assessing the Victimology pattern established by previous kills. An actively soliciting victim is indicated as a preference.

[jerryd]

I found this clip a few months back. I had never heard the story told this way. I find it interesting it does speak of a son but it was not Mary's. The son belonged to a woman living with her which I think Wolf V. has found to be Maria Harvey's son.

Also interesting is the mention of the drover named Jack living in the court that Mary was supposedly his mistress. This account has Mary alive in the morning.

London Standard
Saturday, November 10, 1888, London, Middlesex

[richardnunweek]

Hi ,
This is indeed interesting, as it was reported that Kelly was attached to a man who was a drover, named Lawrence[ Surname] , and a Mrs Hewitt[?] claimed he used to visit Kelly , and then be gone for weeks.
Was this Jack Lawrence?
He allegedly was expecting a summons, and had asked this informant to take it in for him..
I am interested into this account of events, on the morning of the 9th.
It does tally with Maurice Lewis account of seeing Kelly with others in Ringers, and it would appear that she had a call to return to her room.
Was the killer waiting in there?
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hi ,
This is indeed interesting, as it was reported that Kelly was attached to a man who was a drover, named Lawrence[ Surname] , and a Mrs Hewitt[?] claimed he used to visit Kelly , and then be gone for weeks.
Was this Jack Lawrence?
He allegedly was expecting a summons, and had asked this informant to take it in for him..
I am interested into this account of events, on the morning of the 9th.
It does tally with Maurice Lewis account of seeing Kelly with others in Ringers, and it would appear that she had a call to return to her room.
Was the killer waiting in there?
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Sorry double post

[Robert]

So Kelly had her mother living with her? And after the women entered the room they carefully closed it in such a way that McCarthy had to prise it open?

[Debra A]

I found this clip a few months back. I had never heard the story told this way. I find it interesting it does speak of a son but it was not Mary's. The son belonged to a woman living with her which I think Wolf V. has found to be Maria Harvey's son.

Also interesting is the mention of the drover named Jack living in the court that Mary was supposedly his mistress. This account has Mary alive in the morning.

London Standard
Saturday, November 10, 1888, London, Middlesex

Hi Jerry
This is the article that prompted retired Birkenhead Police officer, George West, to write to the City of London Police regarding a Birkenhead woman he remembered from the streets named Mary Jane Kelly who regularly took her child out begging as the Standard mentioned Miller's Court MJK did. George wondered if it may be the same woman.

https://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=17006

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry
This is the article that prompted retired Birkenhead Police officer, George West, to write to the City of London Police regarding a Birkenhead woman he remembered from the streets named Mary Jane Kelly who regularly took her child out begging as the Standard mentioned Miller's Court MJK did. George wondered if it may be the same woman.

https://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=17006

Ah ha. Thanks Debs.

[jerryd]

So Kelly had her mother living with her? And after the women entered the room they carefully closed it in such a way that McCarthy had to prise it open?

I am wondering if the reporter made a mistake and meant to say, she was living with a son and his mother. That makes sense if Maria Harvey was the mother of the eight year old boy.

[Joshua Rogan]

I am wondering if the reporter made a mistake and meant to say, she was living with a son and his mother. That makes sense if Maria Harvey was the mother of the eight year old boy.

Hi Jerry,
Was Harvey old enough to have an eight year old son?