Millers court... A brothel?!

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

Was Millers court a brothel?

Nearly every resident was a prostitute, Mary Kelly was known to let other girls stay/work with her and the other prostitutes living in the court might have let girls stay with them too. From the reports and resident interviews at the time it looks like prostitutes were still in abundance here for some years after. Seems like a lot of prostitutes residing/working from the same location. Is this a coincidence or was it a known place of prostitution?

[GUT]

Was Millers court a brothel?

Nearly every resident was a prostitute, Mary Kelly was known to let other girls stay/work with her and the other prostitutes living in the court might have let girls stay with them too. From the reports and resident interviews at the time it looks like prostitutes were still in abundance here for some years after. Seems like a lot of prostitutes residing/working from the same location. Is this a coincidence or was it a known place of prostitution?

Both.

The evidence seems to be Mary wasn't on the game while Joe was with her. (didn't need to be).

But for the destitute female options for both earning some money and places to live were pretty limited.

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

Both.

The evidence seems to be Mary wasn't on the game while Joe was with her. (didn't need to be).

But for the destitute female options for both earning some money and places to live were pretty limited.

What evidence is that? She was a known to be a prostitute before she was with him, he had lost his job at some point so would have been unable to really support them both and he left her because of other prostitutes staying in the room. He doesn't say whether or not she worked as one while she was with him but considering the evidence its most likely she did.

If all the prostitutes were completely destitute then they would be homeless or living night to night in doss houses if they had made enough money. Mary (and the other girls) in millers court might have been low class but they were renting their own rooms and seem to be doing ok compared to alot.

If millers court was a known place for prostitutes it would seem a strange place for the ripper to go find a victim and remain there while he mutilated her for a few hours (with the possibility of someone coming to visit her). Prostitutes would have been coming and going with their clients and men would be possibly hanging around, considering Mary's room was right at the entrance to the court, would be a risk to him unlike killing someone alone in a secluded area.

[Joshua Rogan]

Here's one example

Evening News 12 Nov
Elizabeth Foster, who lives in a lodging house in Dorset street, and whose whereabouts were difficult to ascertain, made the following statement to a Press Association reporter:

"I have known Mary Jane Kelly for the last eighteen months, and we were always good friends. She used to tell me she came from Limerick. She was as nice a woman as one could find, and although she was an unfortunate, I don't think she went on the streets whilst she lived with Barnet. On Wednesday night I was in her lodgings with her, and the next evening I met her in the Ten Bells public house near Spitalfields Church. We were drinking together, and she went out about five minutes past seven o'clock. I never saw her after that."

[Columbo]

Was Millers court a brothel?

Nearly every resident was a prostitute, Mary Kelly was known to let other girls stay/work with her and the other prostitutes living in the court might have let girls stay with them too. From the reports and resident interviews at the time it looks like prostitutes were still in abundance here for some years after. Seems like a lot of prostitutes residing/working from the same location. Is this a coincidence or was it a known place of prostitution?

Hi Mary,

If you can read Rumbelows "The Complete Jack the Ripper". He makes a very compelling case for Miller's Court being a brothel and possibly the landlord being the pimp. The whole book is a great read.

Columbo

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

Here's one example

Evening News 12 Nov
Elizabeth Foster, who lives in a lodging house in Dorset street, and whose whereabouts were difficult to ascertain, made the following statement to a Press Association reporter:

"I have known Mary Jane Kelly for the last eighteen months, and we were always good friends. She used to tell me she came from Limerick. She was as nice a woman as one could find, and although she was an unfortunate, I don't think she went on the streets whilst she lived with Barnet. On Wednesday night I was in her lodgings with her, and the next evening I met her in the Ten Bells public house near Spitalfields Church. We were drinking together, and she went out about five minutes past seven o'clock. I never saw her after that."

He had lost his job, through theft, so its clear he wasnt able to support them both and there is no evidence that he was supporting them both anyway. She was a known prostitute who was even sharing her room with other prostitutes and that was the reason he left her, this is fact. Whether or not she didnt walk the streets for a short period whilst she was with Barnett is neither here or there.

The point is millers court was predominately home to prostitutes and if this was a known 'pick up' place it would be quite busy. Mrs. Cox (another prostitute in millers court) said she retired to her room for the night around 3am she didnt go to sleep and heard men going in and out of the court throughout the night. Mary's room is by the entrance to the court and has two big windows, wouldnt someone have seen something? And if you were the ripper would you risk the chance of another prostitute/client coming to visit her?

[GUT]

Well someone sure killed her.

Unless you buy the "It was all a set-up" story.

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

Hi Mary,

If you can read Rumbelows "The Complete Jack the Ripper". He makes a very compelling case for Miller's Court being a brothel and possibly the landlord being the pimp. The whole book is a great read.

Columbo

Hey Columbo,

Sounds like an interesting book id love to have a read, do you know where I might find it?

Yes the more you look at the evidence, the more it seems likely it was either a brothel or a known 'pick up' place. If that is the case it would pose alot of questions. Like are witness statements of the residents of millers court reliable? It would make sense that there might have been some kind of cover-up if it would expose the illicit goings on in millers court and possibly incriminate people. If Mcarthy was more of a pimp than a landlord then he starts to look alot more suspicious, why choose that day to send someone else round to her house to collect overdue rent when he lived round the corner himself? She clearly wasnt hiding from him as a day or two before she had gone to his shop to buy a candle. If Mcarthy was a pimp (or involved somehow) then the story about the man he sent round to collect money from her falls under suspicion also. If millers court was a brothel it would also make sense as to why more people didnt come forward with any information as they would be exposing themselves. The couple of statements that did come out were vague at best and the other residents conveniently not seeing or hearing anything is just weird. It would also explain why none of the men coming and going from the court (or the ones that were seen with Mary that night) didnt come forward with any information, if they were clients they probably didnt want it public (or their wives) knowledge that they had been with prostitutes.

[Spider]

If millers court was a known place for prostitutes it would seem a strange place for the ripper to go find a victim .

Unless it was familiar territory and he knew her/had been there before?

[jason_c]

What evidence is that? She was a known to be a prostitute before she was with him, he had lost his job at some point so would have been unable to really support them both and he left her because of other prostitutes staying in the room. He doesn't say whether or not she worked as one while she was with him but considering the evidence its most likely she did.

If all the prostitutes were completely destitute then they would be homeless or living night to night in doss houses if they had made enough money. Mary (and the other girls) in millers court might have been low class but they were renting their own rooms and seem to be doing ok compared to alot.

If millers court was a known place for prostitutes it would seem a strange place for the ripper to go find a victim and remain there while he mutilated her for a few hours (with the possibility of someone coming to visit her). Prostitutes would have been coming and going with their clients and men would be possibly hanging around, considering Mary's room was right at the entrance to the court, would be a risk to him unlike killing someone alone in a secluded area.

As has been said Miller's Court was probably better described as a place you could pick up prostitutes. It was not a brothel. Im sure there is a legal definition of a brothel and that McCarthy made sure his practices in Miller's Court mostly stayed well away from the legal definition. At least nothing could be proven against him. He received his money was from rent of property, where his residents got their rent money was little concern of his.

I don't think it at all strange that the ripper remained with Kelly mutilating her. Part of the role of a prostitute is to provide seclusion for her and her customer(she'd get little repeat business otherwise). I think her killer was on safe ground expecting not to be interrupted for an hour or so. 4am on a cold Autumn morning must surely be a relatively quiet period for most London prostitutes.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
The police believed[ at least initially] that the Millers court murder was committed in Daylight,, even though the medical opinion said otherwise,
''Why''?
Was that based on one witness Maxwell, or did they form that opinion from other sources?
They were the investigation at the time, they were there, so surely we should not dismiss easily..
With reference to Millers court being a brothel. I would say not with the knowledge of Mr and Mrs McCarthy,
Regards Richard.

[Joshua Rogan]

He had lost his job, through theft, so its clear he wasnt able to support them both and there is no evidence that he was supporting them both anyway. She was a known prostitute who was even sharing her room with other prostitutes and that was the reason he left her, this is fact. Whether or not she didnt walk the streets for a short period whilst she was with Barnett is neither here or there.

That's interesting, I wasn't aware of why Joe lost is job. Any sources?

Joe said he gave Mary money when he could, after they split up. This could have been an attempt to show he wasn't living off immoral earnings, I suppose. But if Joe knew that Mary was walking the streets whilst she lived with him, why would another prostitute staying for a couple of days have upset him enough to leave?

[Joshua Rogan]

Telegraph 10 Nov
Mrs Prater interview: it was a common thing for the women living in these tenements to bring men home with them. They could do so as they pleased.....Kelly was, she admitted, one of her own class, and she made no secret of her way of gaining a living

However, in the same paper, "The landlord emphatically disowns any knowledge of his tenement having been used for improper purposes"

And yet, the Daily News 10 Nov says;
"Mr. McCarthy, the proprietor of this shop, has no hesitation in avowing his knowledge that all his six houses were tenanted by women of a certain class. They were let out in separate rooms "furnished," that is to say, there is in each of them a bed and a table, and, perhaps, one or two odds and ends, all of the roughest and most trumpery description, since if any of the things had any appreciable value in the market they would be certain to disappear."

I think McCarthy would have been well aware of how the women of the court earned their rent money (at least on occasion), but turned a blind eye, for legal purposes and possibly more. He may even have seen himself as something of a benefactor - check out his defence of Dorset St a decade or so later;

http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/the-worst-street-in-london.html

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

Hi,
The police believed[ at least initially] that the Millers court murder was committed in Daylight,, even though the medical opinion said otherwise,
''Why''?
Was that based on one witness Maxwell, or did they form that opinion from other sources?
They were the investigation at the time, they were there, so surely we should not dismiss easily..
With reference to Millers court being a brothel. I would say not with the knowledge of Mr and Mrs McCarthy,
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard,

Yes there was more than one witness to her being seen he next morning I think, at least too many to just completely refute the idea. The was that tailor so came forward to seeing her twice the next morning and someone else came forward to say Mary and Joe were in the horn o plenty pub the day after. I believe there was more.

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

That's interesting, I wasn't aware of why Joe lost is job. Any sources?

Joe said he gave Mary money when he could, after they split up. This could have been an attempt to show he wasn't living off immoral earnings, I suppose. But if Joe knew that Mary was walking the streets whilst she lived with him, why would another prostitute staying for a couple of days have upset him enough to leave?

Yes there are a few sources it isnt hidden knowledge. I think he even mentioned it himself at the inquiry. He was a fish porter (or something similar) and lost his job through theft in early August/September.

He may have given her money 'on occasion' but there is nothing to say he supported her fully. Knowing Mary was a prostitute is one thing, living in a small room with her and other prostitutes is another, it was probably the last straw for their relationship (they were known be be a volatile couple).