Mary Kelly's clothing and possessions

[spyglass]

It's easy to get carried away when contemplating possible hoaxes and conspiracies regarding Mary. Maybe she underwent cosmetic surgery and became a stand in double for Queen Victoria or she was an alien and was beamed back to the Mother Ship. Not being smart ass but unless we have evidence to support some wild eyed theory that is all it is. Let's keep Mr. Occam close by and on call.

c.d.

I don't even take my own idea too seriously, I'm open to all ideas.
someone said on here recently that the case will never be solved with just the facts we have.
All I've tried to do is use mostly facts, and see how they could fit together from a different angle.

please note I've shy'd away from suggesting that the police set up Maybrick with a hoax diary....but I'm working on it.

regards

[Joshua Rogan]

Maurice Lewis.

Illustrated Police News 17 Nov

Maurice Lewis, a tailor, living in Dorset-street, stated that he had known the deceased woman for the last five years. Her name was Mary Jane Kelly. She was short, stout, and dark; and stood about five feet three inches. He saw her on the previous (Thursday) night, betwen ten and eleven, at the Horn of Plenty in Dorset-street. She was drinking with some woman and also with "Dan," a man selling oranges in Billingsgate and Spitalfields markets, with whom she lived up till as recently as a fortnight ago. He knew her as a woman of the town. One of the woman whom he saw with her was known as Julia. To his knowledge she went home overnight with a man. He seemed to be respectably dressed. Whether or no the man remained all night he could not say. Soon after ten o'clock in the morning he was playing with others at pitch and toss in M'Carthy's-cour, when he heard a lad call out "Copper," and he and his companions rushed away and entered a beer-house at the corner of Dorset- street, known as Ringer's. He was positive than on going in he saw Mary Jane Kelly drinking with some other people, but is not certain whether there was a man amongst them. He went home to Dorset-street on leaving the house, and about half an hour afterwards heard that Kelly had been found in her room murdered. It would then be close upon eleven o'clock.

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

Does anyone know how I would find the contents list abberline mentioned regarding Mary's stuff in millers court? Or does anyone know what stuff she had?

From what I can gather it seems it might be something like this:


- Clothing folded on a chair (what was this clothing there is no description?).

- A pair of boots (no description on them).

- Burned clothing in the fireplace (Again no description of what clothing it is).

- A kettle (I think the spout was melted)

- She bought a candle from Mcarthy's shop a day or two earlier.

- There was either some blood stained clothing or bedding by the bed when she was found.

- I think Maria Harvey gave her a bonnet (I could be wrong about this).

- In the crime scene photograph there looks like some sort of metal wash tub under her bed.

- She could be wearing some sort of undergarment, possibly a chemise, in the crime scene photo, but some reports say she was naked.

- I think there was a piece of clothing, or material, in the broken window (I could be wrong about this aswell).


Please help by adding your own suggestions...

[richardnunweek]

Hi Joshua,
You are right obviously about the coroner having the say who was called as a witness, albeit most likely with the police opinion that she was a credible witness in his mind.
Referring to the jacket and bonnet, I was taking the Times Nov 12, and the quote that the police believed the said items were burnt because of bloodstains,and this murder happened in daylight.
The Maurice Lewis possible sighting of Kelly in Ringers also is interesting, as there is a report that Kelly was drinking with others, when someone told her she was wanted outside, and she apparently went back to her room.
It could well be that MJK was mistaken for another resident of the court, by several that morning, or maybe not.?
Regards Richard.

[Joshua Rogan]

Ah, you mean this one Richard;

Times 12 Nov
"The police, on making a more minute search of the room in which the body was found, on Saturday morning discovered in the fireplace the charred rim and wirework of a woman's felt hat, as well as a piece of burnt velvet. These, no doubt, formed a portion of a hat and velvet jacket belonging to and worn by Kelly, which are missing. A woman, who is known by the name of Julia and who was in the habit of continually visiting Kelly's room, states she knew that she had two cotton shirts there. These the police are unable to find, and believe they were consumed with the hat and jacket. As a proof that the fierce fire must have been made in the fireplace, there was found a large quantity of ashes, and the rim, the handle, and spout of the kettle had been burnt away from the remaining portion of the vessel. The police are of the opinion that the murderer did his fiendish work in daylight, and burnt the above-named articles probably because they were bloodstained. In support of that theory, they have ascertained that on Wednesday night the dead woman purchased a halfpenny candle at the neighbouring chandler's shop, and on the room being searched this candle was barely half consumed."

It seems a strange theory to me, that because there was still some candle left then the murder must have been performed in daylight.... I mean, surely the murderer would have drawn the curtains at least, in which case the candle (or fire) would still likely have been needed. Besides, it's contradicted by Abberline who said at inquest that he thought the clothing was burned to provide light.

[Joshua Rogan]

Does anyone know how I would find the contents list abberline mentioned regarding Mary's stuff in millers court? Or does anyone know what stuff she had?

Sadly I don't think this list has survived. Maybe it will turn up one day though!

From what I can gather it seems it might be something like this:

- Clothing folded on a chair (what was this clothing there is no description?).
- A pair of boots (no description on them).

I think the folded clothing gets a mention because it illustrates that Mary was probably in bed at the time of the attack, rather than dressed.

- Burned clothing in the fireplace (Again no description of what clothing it is).
- A kettle (I think the spout was melted)
- She bought a candle from Mcarthy's shop a day or two earlier.

See Times 12 Nov report from previous post

- There was either some blood stained clothing or bedding by the bed when she was found.

Some papers say the bedclothes were turned down, after her throat was cut (hence the bloodstains). I believe these bedclothes are by her right shin in the mjk1/2 photo, although there is what looks like a rolled up blanket draped over the table in mjk3

- I think Maria Harvey gave her a bonnet (I could be wrong about this).

Maria Harvey
Statement: I left an overcoat, two dirty cotton shirts, a boy's shirt and a girl's white petticoat and black crepe bonnet in the room
Inquest: I left some clothes in the room: 2 men's shirts, 1 boy's shirt, an overcoat a black one a mans, a black crape bonnet with black strings, a ticket for a shawl in for 2/-, one little child's petticoat

Presumably, with the exception of the coat (which was covering the window), these items were burned in the fire. Possibly along with some of Mary's own clothes.

- In the crime scene photograph there looks like some sort of metal wash tub under her bed.

Agreed. Along with the evidence of a large fire (it might not have been only the killer who lit it) perhaps it was used to wash the clothes left (to dry?) by Harvey who was described as a laundress?

- She could be wearing some sort of undergarment, possibly a chemise, in the crime scene photo, but some reports say she was naked.

Dr Phillips noted that she was apparently wearing the chemise, but Bond and most other witnesses said she was naked. Whilst Phillips is technically correct (certainly before the attack) I think either description is valid, given how little of her body the garment ended up covering.

- I think there was a piece of clothing, or material, in the broken window (I could be wrong about this aswell).

I read somewhere that this was screwed up newspaper, but can't be sure.

Please help by adding your own suggestions...

I mentioned earlier the clay pipe that had belonged to Barnett.
I think from memory there were also some empty ginger beer bottles in the room.

[Joshua Rogan]

It could well be that MJK was mistaken for another resident of the court, by several that morning, or maybe not.?

I've often wondered if that was the case. Kelly was described by most people as tall (5'7") and fair, whereas Lewis described her as "short, stout, and dark; and stood about five feet three inches." Mrs Maxwell said she was a "pleasant little woman", Maxwell herself being either 5'0" or 5'5", either way shorter than Kelly.
Lewis also says he had known her for about 5 years, whereas according to Barnett she'd only been in London for 4 years, and in Spitalfields only 2 years. They do both get other details of Mary's life correct, though so who knows.
Interestingly, Mrs Prater had been separated from her husband for 5 years, and her door was in the same passageway as Kelly's. She'd also been to the pub that morning, although earlier than either witness said.

[Joshua Rogan]

One item of clothing mentioned, at least.

Telegraph 10 Nov
"That the woman had had no struggle with her betrayer was shown by her position and the way in which her garments, including a velvet bodice, were arranged by the fireplace."


Forgot to mention. Another item said to be in room 13 was a picture over the fireplace, but possibly this was provided with the furniture by McCarthy (although not mentioned by him).

[Mary_Jane_Kelly]

This is an updated version of a list (thanks to everyone's help) of the Mary's contents from millers court. If anyone has some more suggestions please share!


- Clothing folded on a chair, we can now assume one of these items was a velvet bodice (Telegraph 10 Nov "... her garments, including a velvet bodice, were arranged by the fireplace." (This could be the same bodice she was witnessed wearing the day after? The other items of clothing still need identifying).

- A pair of boots (no description on them).

- Burned clothing in the fireplace, this could be a felt hat and piece of velvet, possibly from a jacket (Times 12 Nov "...in the fireplace the charred rim and wirework of a woman's felt hat, as well as a piece of burnt velvet. These, no doubt, formed a portion of a hat and velvet jacket belonging to and worn by Kelly, which are missing.")

- A kettle.

- A halfpenny candle (bought from Mcarthy's shop).

- There was blood stained bedding by the bed when she was found.

- I think Maria Harvey gave her a bonnet (I could be wrong about this).

- In the crime scene photograph there looks like some sort of metal wash tub under her bed.

- She could be wearing some sort of undergarment, possibly a chemise, in the crime scene photo, but some reports say she was naked.

- I there was a piece of material (possibly newspaper) in the broken window.

- A clay pipe that had belonged to Joe Barnett.

- There may have been some empty ginger beer bottles.

- A picture over the fireplace (no description, possibly part of the furnishings provided by Mcarthy).

- There was an overcoat hung over the window. (This could be the men's black overcoat Maria Harvey said was hers).

- Maria Harvey's said she left some clothes in the room: a black overcoat (men's), 2 dirty cotton shirts (men's), 1 boy's shirt, 1 child's white petticoat, 1 black crape bonnet with black strings, and a ticket for a shawl in for 2/-.

- Julia (Venturney?) states she had 2 cotton shirts there (were these the shirts Maria Harvey said were hers? could these women just be lying so they could get Mary's clothing?)

- Detective Constable Walter Dew says she always wore a white apron (where was this?)

- She was witnessed last seen wearing a linsey frock & red shawl (where were these?)

- Still no mention of undergarments (except the possible chemise in the crime scene photo) where are her stockings, petticoats, corset, ect?

[Joshua Rogan]

Pall Mall Gazette 12 Nov 1888, account of the jury's visit to 13 Miller's Court;

"The inspector, holding a candle stuck in a bottle, stood at the head of the filthy, bloodstained bed, and repeated the horrible details with appalling minuteness. He indicated with one hand the bloodstains on the wall, and point with the other to the pools which had ebbed out on to the mattress. The little table was still on the left of the bedstead, which occupied the larger portion of the room. A farthing dip in a bottle did not serve to illuminate the fearful gloom, but I was able to see what a wretched hole the poor murdered woman called "home". The only attempts at decoration were a couple of engravings, one, "The Fisherman's Widow", stuck over the mantelpiece: while in the corner was an open cupboard, containing a few bits of pottery, some ginger-beer bottles, and a bit of bread on a plate. "

[Kattrup]

Well why would the police bother mentioning only a couple items in the room if there was more, they said there was clothing on the chair and boots near the fireplace. We can see from the crime photos ourselves that there is some sort of wash tub under the bed. This means these clothes in particular were a point of interest or the police wanted to make it seem like they were the only items there. If there was more clothing, personal items or anything else it would have at least been mentioned.

No, the police mentioned what they mentioned because they were asked about those things at the inquest. A few other items were mentioned by the press.

It is obvious that MJK had some other items in the room than what the sources mention - your own example of the wash tub proves this. No source mentions it, but it was there.

I'm sure you'll agree that descriptions work like that: some things are mentioned, but that does not mean that no other things are there. If I ask someone to describe their bedroom and they go "Well, there's a bed, and a cupboard of clothes, and a rug on the floor and a photo on the wall", should I assume that there's nothing else in the room? Of course not.

It seems like the room was bare almost, leaving us with no real evidence of who Mary was.

If we can know what kind of stuff she had in her room, personal items, sentimental items, clothing, anything... We can get a better understanding of who she was, what she did and how she would spend her time and daily life. Learning more about her would help solve some of the mystery around her.

I agree, it would be great to find Abberline's list or similar source.

- There was blood stained bedding by the bed when she was found.

The bedding (and furniture) belonged to McCarthy

- Detective Constable Walter Dew says she always wore a white apron (where was this?)

- She was witnessed last seen wearing a linsey frock & red shawl (where were these?)

- Still no mention of undergarments (except the possible chemise in the crime scene photo) where are her stockings, petticoats, corset, ect?

We don't know, and barring the discovery of a hitherto unknown source, we cannot know. It is incorrect to assume that they were missing.

These items of clothing were most likely in the room. Or they were burnt, as Abberline theorised. We don't know.

[Batman]

The Mary Kelly crime scene photographs have what looks like pillowcases and possibly a bed cover up on the table for the torso photograph and in the full photograph of Mary Kelly there is what looks like a bundle of bed covers near her left leg. I think that might be clothing and possibly the man's overcoat left behind by Maria Harvey. Maybe the ripper flung it there because it was hard to cut up and hang on the spout over the fire. Or maybe it is Mary Kelly's clothing. I think it looks like the overcoat because you can see the inside lining isn't dark like the outside.

Either that or there was a lot of covers.

[Batman]

I also want to add that the melted spout probably did not happen without some weight on it. It seems to me the Ripper had experience burning clothes. You can't just dump clothes on the fire and hope it will all light up into a big blaze. You need air to pass through. Also, if it lit up in a big blaze, it would be a fire hazard. So you do this in two ways. You cut the clothes, and you hang the pieces over the fire. The kettle and its spout would allow a way for the ripper to keep placing pieces of clothes hanging over the fire. The weight of clothes on the spout probably caused it to fail.

The Ripper cuts clothes. We know this for a fact. We also know he takes pieces away with him. Ripper cleaned up using Maria Harvey's clothes and possibly some of Mary Kellys. He cut strips away like he did Eddowes apron.