The clue of the coins

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Mr Lucky,

A mercantile point here.

Who would have risked arousing suspicion by trying to foist a bogus half sovereign on an old Whitechapel slapper when the going rate for a bit of rumpty-tumpty was less than sixpence?

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon

I have no idea, the coins don't exist anyway, so there isn't a need to create a person or a reason to give them to chapman anyway.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Mr Lucky,

A mercantile point here.

Who would have risked arousing suspicion by trying to foist a bogus half sovereign on an old Whitechapel slapper when the going rate for a bit of rumpty-tumpty was less than sixpence?

Regards,

Simon

[Mr Lucky]

I read on the chapman timeline that a fellow lodger had seen annie put the pills in an old scrap of envelope. Does anyone know what sussex regiment means? It's what was on the envelope. So chapman got the pills at the hospital...does anyone know why she went to the hospital?

So...Lucky...your saying the coins were fake?

I thought polished farthing meant the coins were literally polished. But if I'm understanding you correctly your saying they were slugs. So perhaps Chapman tried to pass off the fake coins to the wrong person?

It was just the address on the envelope, the police went down and checked it out. Chapman was in fact dying of an ailment this was unknown until the PM, however she was known to be ill.

No the coins are genuine - they are both a very similar size, but if the oxide is polished off the copper/bronze(depend on when they were made) farthing it looks similar to a gold half-sovereign, also any real scam would probably have more chance of succeeding if they showed a real gold half-sovereign and switch them at the last mo.

Generally the idea would be that the presence of the polished farthings at the scene would suggest she had fallen victim to the scam.

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky

I think the pills were recognised as Chapmans, also other drugs have been suggested before like chloroform and ether, but would the killer using them be a sign of OCD?

The polished farthings notion was an old scam - there are very hard to distinguish from gold half-sovereigns, it's a very profitable scam as a farthing is a quarter of a penny and a half-sovereign is 120 pennies.

I read on the chapman timeline that a fellow lodger had seen annie put the pills in an old scrap of envelope. Does anyone know what sussex regiment means? It's what was on the envelope. So chapman got the pills at the hospital...does anyone know why she went to the hospital?

So...Lucky...your saying the coins were fake?

I thought polished farthing meant the coins were literally polished. But if I'm understanding you correctly your saying they were slugs. So perhaps Chapman tried to pass off the fake coins to the wrong person?

[Mr Lucky]

Well to me the murders seem very organized and planned for instance I think the ripper knew mitre square well enough to know what window he had when no residents would be going in or out. Also I think the way the body parts were put over the shoulder appears somewhat compulsive. But I was wondering what the pills were....I think it's possible the ripper used datura/belladonna to turn victims into docile zombies. It can be blown into someone's face without them knowing. Very unlikely I know but it wouldn't show up on poison screenings I bet. Highly improbable that the ripper would know about this but d'onston might since he studied the occult. If the coins were polished....that's a sign of OCD in my opinion..

Hi Rocky

I think the pills were recognised as Chapmans, also other drugs have been suggested before like chloroform and ether, but would the killer using them be a sign of OCD?

The polished farthings notion was an old scam - there are very hard to distinguish from gold half-sovereigns, it's a very profitable scam as a farthing is a quarter of a penny and a half-sovereign is 120 pennies.

[RockySullivan]

Well to me the murders seem very organized and planned for instance I think the ripper knew mitre square well enough to know what window he had when no residents would be going in or out. Also I think the way the body parts were put over the shoulder appears somewhat compulsive. But I was wondering what the pills were....I think it's possible the ripper used datura/belladonna to turn victims into docile zombies. It can be blown into someone's face without them knowing. Very unlikely I know but it wouldn't show up on poison screenings I bet. Highly improbable that the ripper would know about this but d'onston might since he studied the occult. If the coins were polished....that's a sign of OCD in my opinion..

[Mr Lucky]

Do you think the pills had anything to do with the "organ-theft"

Hi Rocky

Me personally? - I think Baxter is half right - it is a blind or a distraction, but so is everything else, not just the pills but the whole business , the organ theft, the murder itself and in fact the whole autumn of terror it's all just a distraction.

Basically that's why the killings are so odd in general.

What other aspects to the killing do put down to OCD?

[RockySullivan]

Do you think the pills had anything to do with the "organ-theft"

[Mr Lucky]

I find it very interesting that the rings were taken as trophies by the ripper. And the pills also stand out to me. What were the pills for? Annie had got them on a recent visit to the hospital...this would be London hospital I presume? So did the killer take out the pills and place them by the body? So where chapmans items arranged neatly by her body and if so does this show OCD on jacks part?

Hi Rocky

Coroner Baxter described all this as a 'thin veiled blind' to hide the real reason for the crime - the organ theft

[Mr Lucky]

What colour shawl was she wearing?

Hi Pink,

Ah, the mysterious shawl ;- those who saw it actually describe it as looking like a 'pair of cricketers y-fronts' , they were lost on route to the mortuary never to be seen again, if found they could be worth their weight in jellybeans to anyone carrying the so-called gullibility gene - 'JckRip1'

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Don

I can't be 100% sure it was The Times because the National Library of Scotland had two sets of newspapers from the period on microfiche and I trawled through both. I can't remember what the other one was. I certainly committed it to memory as being The Times, but at this distance it's hard to be 100%.

Can't you contact them and ask? perhaps at the actual location you used might be best, rather than the head office.

I *am* pretty certain that it was before the Chapman murder because that's what struck me. A reference to coins or rings being laid out neatly at the Nichols crime scene would be easily explained if it ran after Chapman's death -- simply a case of the kind of inaccurate reporting that the British press has alays been full of. But appearing before the Chapman killing means it couldn't have been a mostake, unless it was a weirdly prophetic one foreshadowing the later crime scene.

Well, that's it really, that why I'm interested - partially due to the idea of the 'copy-cat' killer vs the 'narrative-driven' killer. The press are largely just repeating what they have been told - it's not necessary inaccurate reporting just inaccurate information so it's important to try to find the source of the information and date it's first appearance.

Whether the info is inaccurate or not isn't important as far as testing the hypothesis that a particular murder was done by a copy-cat killer - as he wouldn't know that either - he would assume the info in the press was accurate.

What were the other papers covering the case? Maybe it will jog my decaying memory.

The only other thing I seem to remember was that the piece wasn't written when the Nichols murder was breaking news, but a few days or more afterwards.

Loads of other papers - I would say nearly all.
Very little appeared after the second day of the Inquest which was reported on the 3rd and 4th Sept., most of which can be seen using the calendar feature on the press section to the left.

[RockySullivan]

I find it very interesting that the rings were taken as trophies by the ripper. And the pills also stand out to me. What were the pills for? Annie had got them on a recent visit to the hospital...this would be London hospital I presume? So did the killer take out the pills and place them by the body? So where chapmans items arranged neatly by her body and if so does this show OCD on jacks part?

[Donpayasos]

coins/rings/Times

Hi Donpayasos
Are you sure that it was the Times?
Are you sure that it was between the Nichols/Chapman murders?

I can't be 100% sure it was The Times because the National Library of Scotland had two sets of newspapers from the period on microfiche and I trawled through both. I can't remember what the other one was. I certainly committed it to memory as being The Times, but at this distance it's hard to be 100%.

I *am* pretty certain that it was before the Chapman murder because that's what struck me. A reference to coins or rings being laid out neatly at the Nichols crime scene would be easily explained if it ran after Chapman's death -- simply a case of the kind of inaccurate reporting that the British press has alays been full of. But appearing before the Chapman killing means it couldn't have been a mostake, unless it was a weirdly prophetic one foreshadowing the later crime scene.

What were the other papers covering the case? Maybe it will jog my decaying memory.

The only other thing I seem to remember was that the piece wasn't written when the Nichols murder was breaking news, but a few days or more afterwards.

[pinkmoon]

Nichols possessions

general reports - comb and a broken mirror
some other reports (Neil's testimony) - pocket handkerchief
Echo - soap

There were also some early reports that had claimed that she had been robbed of her rings, these were latter denied.

What colour shawl was she wearing?

[lynn cates]

49

Hello Jon. Thanks. Try p. 49.

Cheers.
LC