In a heartbeat

[Mr Lucky]

Perhaps, Mr Lucky is spot on with his theory, if I have understood it correctly, and she was still alive and breathing at that point.

Hi Jon,

Yes, I think Nichols is alive but unconscious after being throttled at that point in time. The major knife wounds are only inflicted after Paul had left the scene, the only possible exception for me being the two stabs to the privates.

It's ok for Fisherman to cite something that shows the possibility of someone breathing/heart beating after they have been killed (and Nichols being dead before Cross arrives is nearly everyone's version of events) , but the rational explanation, or the explanation based on ordinary everyday experience, will always favour the idea that the breathing would be a sign that the woman still alive, and the notion that the woman was alive at that time at the scene is the best explanation for Pauls behaviour, then as well. No one notices any blood or injuries either, and Paul wanted to prop the woman up.

[Fisherman]

Perhaps, Mr Lucky is spot on with his theory, if I have understood it correctly, and she was still alive and breathing at that point.

I used to think, don`t laugh, that it was a loose breast that had shifted slightly.

Sorry, Jon. I laughed.

Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Yes, he did. Something stirred in the chest, thatīs all we have. He had put his hand on it, and I guess a heartbeat could be interpreted as a slight raising of the chest, giving cause to saying: I think sheīs breathing, but itīs very little if she is.
And all in all, breathing is something you will not engage in with your neck cut completely off. So if he felt something, my money is on the heart.

Perhaps, Mr Lucky is spot on with his theory, if I have understood it correctly, and she was still alive and breathing at that point.

I used to think, don`t laugh, that it was a loose breast that had shifted slightly.

[Fisherman]

Hi Fisherman


Just a thought.
Didn`t he think he detected her breathing (lungs) rather than a heart beat ?

Yes, he did. Something stirred in the chest, thatīs all we have. He had put his hand on it, and I guess a heartbeat could be interpreted as a slight raising of the chest, giving cause to saying: I think sheīs breathing, but itīs very little if she is.
And all in all, breathing is something you will not engage in with your neck cut completely off. So if he felt something, my money is on the heart.

The best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Hi Fisherman

To me, this information is vital. It tells me that Robert Paul could very well have felt Nichols heart beating as he put his hand on her chest.

Just a thought.
Didn`t he think he detected her breathing (lungs) rather than a heart beat ?

[Fisherman]

Enlightening & helpful, thankyou Christer.

My pleasure, Jon - this was an issue Iīve mulled over a number of times, so Iīm glad I took the trouble to have it explained to me.

The best,
Fisherman

[Wickerman]

Enlightening & helpful, thankyou Christer.

[Fisherman]

Thanks for posting, very interesting.

You are welcome, Jon. I was flabbergasted when it dawned on me that the Loye/Regnard study may be true. Itīs a bit of Frankensteinsīmonster all over again, is it not?

The best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Thanks for posting, very interesting.

[Fisherman]

I am opening up a new thread on Polly Nichols, as a result of a discussion I have had with Observer. The discussion came up on the "Did Jack kill Liz Stride" thread, and since it concerns only Nichols, this is the correct forum for it.
The topic of the discussion was whether Nicholsī heart could go on beating for any significant time after Polly had been nearly decapitated. I am of the meaning that this could have been so, wheras Observer disagreed.

I have been doing some research into the field afterwards, and I found a couple of things that are interesting in this context.

To begin with, I found the late 19:th century work of the doctors Loye and Regnard, who studied - believe it or not - freshly decapitated criminals. In
The Proges Medical of July 9th (likely:1886), they published their findings, and I quote from the journal:

"... on the examination of the head and body of a convict immediately after his decapitation by the guillotine. The prisoner was calm to the last, and not pale, even when his neck was fixed ready to receive the fatal knife. Two seconds after decapitation the cheeks were still rosy, the eyes wide open, with moderately dialated pupils, the mouth firmly closed. No fibrillary contractions could be observed. When the finger was placed close to one eye, no change of expression took place; but on touching an eye or the tips of the lashes, during the first five seconds, the lids closed just as in life. This reflex action could not be elicited from the sixth second after decapitation. The jaws were tightly clenched, and could not be opened by manual force; no similar muscular contraction could be detected in the trunk or extremities.

One minute after death the face began to turn pale, the trunk remained flaccid, the carotids countinuing to throw out blood remaining in the circulatory area. At the end of four minutes the face was quite pale, the upper lids were half closed, the jaws less firmly clenched than before.

Irritation of the cut surfaces of the spinal cord failed to produce reflex movements either in the trunk or on the face. For twenty minutes there was no change; then the necropsy was begun. There were signs of old pleurisy and alcoholism. The heart beat actively. On opening the pericardium, the ventricles and aurcles continued to pulsate for twenty-five minutes; the former then ceased to beat, but the auricles went on for forty minutes longer. Thus the heart beat for an hour after decapitation. Then its chambers were laid open; the left ventricle was firmly contracted, the right relaxed. There was emphysema at the edges of the left lung, as is nearly always observed after death by the guillotine. There were bubbles of air in the vessels of the pia mater, and much air in the subarachnoid space. The knife had passed through the lower part of the fourth cervical vertebra."

I was amazed to read this, and frankly found it very hard to believe. It sounded like a gothic horror tale.

So I turned to Sixten Persson, who is a forensic doctor and expert, heading the Institution of Forensic Medicine in Lund, Sweden. I informed him about the damage done to Nichols, and I quoted Loye and Regnard and asked him about their work. I asked whether it was possible for Nichols heart to go on beating for the odd minute or two after she was cut. Hereīs the answer, translated from Swedish:

"The activity of the heart is governed by nerve impulses from the brain as well as by hormones via the blood. The organ, however, has an internal acticity, causing it to beat even if these external stimuli cease. For example, by braindead individuals, heart activity can be upheld for a long time, provided that there is a respirator supplying oxygen to the blood.

It all begins to be more problematic if the individual is loosing blood and blood pressure quickly, as is the case with deep cuts to the throat, ultimately decapitation. This means that the blood and oxygenation is rapidly lost to the heart. The question that thus arises is how long a heart can go on beating without any oxygen.

Evolutionary, the heart is an organ with a large capacity to retain itīs activity. In Polly Nicholsī case, it is possible that there was heart activity for a couple of minutes after she sustained her deadly injuries.

When it comes to the anecdotal information about hour-long intervals of retained heart activity, it is possible that this can be so, especially if we are dealing with young individs (although I am somewhat doubtful). If I myself had been the person decapitated, being 55+, my heart would most likely have ceased to beat much earlier.

Sixten Persson"

To me, this information is vital. It tells me that Robert Paul could very well have felt Nichols heart beating as he put his hand on her chest. What is perfectly obvious too, though, is that whoever killed her, could actually have done so a substantial amount of time before Lechmere got into the street, and fled afterwards.
From experiments carried out on hung people, hearts have been recorded to go on beating for up to a couple of minutes, and I think that Nicholsī heart would have shut down after very few minutes, once she sustained that cut to the throat. And that would put the time when she was cut at around the time Lechmere was alone with her, her heart perhaps producing itīs last dying beating when Paul put his hand on her chest.

I am painfully aware, though, that there can always be other interpretations- always! We do now know, however, that it was perfectly feasible that Pollyīs heart was still beating as the carmen knelt beside her body. Given that Neil saw blood running from the wound around perhaps three or four minutes later, and that Mizen saw the same thing a further three or four minutes down the line, I think that heart activity would perhaps even be able to explain this. With the types of injuries she had sustained, why would it take some 6-8 minutes for her to bleed out if the heart was not active to some extent? Especially if she was not cut by Lechmere, but perhaps many minutes before his arrival - then we must add these many minutes to the 6-8 minutes of running blood that we already have!

All the best,
Fisherman