was Nichols murdered where found?

[spyglass]

Why should we even think that the body might have been killed elsewhere?

As I have said earlier, the location, the recessed doors, the relative darkness were all consistent with a place an unfortunate might go to conduct her business.

There is no suggestion that Annie, Liz, Kate, mary or any other potential victim was murdered other than where they were discovered. So my hypothcate such an idea for Polly?

It was discussed in the past as part of a notion (now discredited) that they were killed in carriage and dumped.

I see no logic to any discussion of a potential different MO in this case.

Phil H

Hi,
The only reason I questioned about Nicoles being murdered else where was because I noticed the lamp lighting up the murder spot and thus making it a silly place to carry out such a deed, but a good place to display a body.
But now it seems the lamp wasnt there and so doesnt matter now.


Regards.

[Lechmere]

This may be becoming an increasingly arcane discussion, but in 1891 nos. 1-5 were no longer in Bucks Row, which suggests that the re-listing happened between 1888 and the Goad map of 1890.
Interestingly the Goad map makes no reference to Great Eastern Square. I would suggest that it is most likely that it briefly referred only to the frontage of the school. The 1886 map is not exactly clear.

Various reports make it clear that Bucks Row was regarded as running from Thomas Street to Brady Street.
Take this from ‘The Echo’ of 1st September:
“Buck's-row runs through from Thomas-street to Brady-street, and in the latter street what appeared to be bloodstains were found at irregular distances on the footpaths on either side of the way.”
This is not an isolated example. It is dangerous to place too much reliance on cartographers who are unfamiliar with localities.

On the issue of reporting faulty gas lights, take a look at the map on post 24.
There are two other gas lights indicated on Bucks Row.
Does Neil mention them? No.
Clearly (yes clearly) they were not working.
Does Neil report this fact at the inquest? No.
Did Neil report any other lights? No.
Conclusion – he only mentioned the one light that was working.

If that one light was the one at the end of Bucks Row on Brady Street, why would Neil mention the light?
Was it visible to him?
Yes, he could see it when he noticed the body.
It is stated that he walked across to get to the body. Although some reports say he was on the right hand (or southern) side of the road, others say he was on the left hand (northern) side. They both say that he walked across. As the body was on the southern side of the road this implies that he had to cross Bucks Row to get to it. Hence he must have been on the northern or left hand side. From that side he could have seen the Brady Street light.

The light is also referred to as being on the opposite side. This would not be the case if it was the western light which would have been on the same side as Neil, whereas the Brady Street light was effectively on the opposite side.

Lastly as commercial premises occupied the left or northern side of Bucks Row it makes sense that Neil walked down that side.

While I agree that there is no grounds for thinking that Polly Nicholls was killed anywhere but at Bucks Row, the doors to Brown's Stable Yard do not seem to have been recessed to any marked degree.

[Phil H]

Why should we even think that the body might have been killed elsewhere?

As I have said earlier, the location, the recessed doors, the relative darkness were all consistent with a place an unfortunate might go to conduct her business.

There is no suggestion that Annie, Liz, Kate, mary or any other potential victim was murdered other than where they were discovered. So my hypothcate such an idea for Polly?

It was discussed in the past as part of a notion (now discredited) that they were killed in carriage and dumped.

I see no logic to any discussion of a potential different MO in this case.

Phil H

[Bridewell]

There was apparently a letter sent to Mrs Hardiman of Hanbury Street suggesting that the earlier murder of Nichols was carried out by several persons and the body place in Bucks Row. Why on earth would anybody take the time and effort to suggest this happened. There is no smoke without fire.....

I'm not sure the letter is of much value as evidence. It could have a basis in fact, but it could equally well have been mischief-making. What I would like to know is why such a letter was sent to Mrs Hardiman. Distraction technique? If so, from what? Bucks Row presumably - a bit too close for comfort perhaps?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Just to further complicate matters, in the 1888 Post Office Street Directory the north side of Bucks Row commenced at the corner of Thomas Street.

Regards,

Simon

[Edward]

Thoughts on relative lack of blood

Hello All –

Perhaps the relative lack of blood at the murder site was due to the fact that the victim was dead when the butchery commenced. There is medical opinion that her throat was cut while she was on the ground. The medicos were also of the opinion that the abdomen was opened up while she was on the ground.

It is a commonly held belief among many on these boards (myself included) that the killer strangled the victims in order to get them on the ground before starting the butchery. This is a murder that occurred early in the series. Perhaps the strangulation was more complete (and effective) in this case than it was in later events. If the heart had stopped beating due to the lack of oxygen, there would be no spurt of blood when the throat was cut, only some drainage from the severed vessels.

Even if the victim is not quite dead after the strangulation, bradycardia induced by lack of oxygen may not produce as much blood as would normally be expected. Just some thoughts.

Edward

[Rob Clack]

Can any instance of the area from the School to Thomas Street being referred to as 'Great Eastern Square' be located in any report relating to this murder?

There's no reason why it should be?
Anyway can't find my source for the area in front of the board school being refered to as Great Eastern Square it was a few years back. It was something to do with the Coal Depot.

These should do. The first is from 1886 and the Goad 1890.





Rob

[waterloo]

I think we should all return to the original suggestion that Nichols could have been killed elsewhere than Bucks Row. Why do we keep ignoring evidence collected at the time. There was apparently a letter sent to Mrs Hardiman of Hanbury Street suggesting that the earlier murder of Nichols was acrried out b several persons and the body place in Bucks Row. Why on earth would anybody take the time and effort to suggest this happened. There is no smoke without fire.....

Thank you all

I am still trying....

[Monty]

It is a Constables duty to record every malfunctioning lamp on his beat and report it at the earliest opportunity.

If it was unlit, it would have been noted.

Why describe a lamp in Brady St, which cannot be seen from the murder scene.

No, that suggestion does not work at all.


Monty

[Bridewell]

And why would Neil list every unlit gas light?

Because he was giving evidence at an inquest where the lighting conditions would have been highly relevant - which is probably why he was asked about them.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Lechmere]

But in the 1881 census 1-5 Bucks Row were found on the northern side of the road and immediately east of Thomas Street (and west of the 'westerly' lamp).

I would suggest the lamp marked on Brady Street is the one Neil referred to. It fits his testimony.

There was no row of houses on the northern side around where the westerly lamp was located. And why would Neil list every unlit gas light? The 1873 (?) map shows several lamps down Bucks Row that must have been out.

But in any case the westerly lamp was of sufficent distance back from Brown's Stable Yard so as to scarcely provided any illumination of the murder scene - had it been lit.

Can any instance of the area from the School to Thomas Street being referred to as 'Great Eastern Square' be located in any report relating to this murder?

[Rob Clack]

And from there to Bakers Row it was Whites Row wasn't it Rob?

Monty

Indeed it was.

Rob

[Monty]

Bucks Row 1873

I have marked the only street lamp which is on Brady Street. Note no street lamps in Bucks Row.

[ATTACH]14959[/ATTACH]

The light I have marked was at the end of Bucks Row as Bucks Row didn't extend to Bakers Row in 1888 but only to the board school. The area in front of the board school was known as Great Eastern Square.
Rob

And from there to Bakers Row it was Whites Row wasn't it Rob?

Monty

[Monty]

Like I said, your interpretation.

Neil doesn't state that the lamp he had just passed was out. If it were then that would have been an important piece of information to note, he doesn't.

He states the lamp was at the end of THE Row, indicating houses and not the street, which he does mention. Thereby Neil has noted a difference between the two. The Row is in reference to the houses. The lamp was not at the end of this Row of houses however neither was the most easterly lamp.

Additionally, Neil states "It was dark at the time, though there was a street lamp shining at the end of the row". Its logical to assume Neil is referring to the location of the crime scene and his comment that "it was dark at the time , though there was a street lamp at the end of the row" is describing that scene. So why refer to a lamp near Brady st?

That's MY interpretation. Up to the reader to make their own mind up.

Monty

[Rob Clack]

Bucks Row 1873

I have marked the only street lamp which is on Brady Street. Note no street lamps in Bucks Row.



The light I have marked was at the end of Bucks Row as Bucks Row didn't extend to Bakers Row in 1888 but only to the board school. The area in front of the board school was known as Great Eastern Square.
Rob