Who was the first clothes-puller?

[Rubyretro]

Ruby, could you replace the tomatoes in that recipe with several good dollops of ice cream? Ta.

It is a delicious recipé as it is, Robert -try it.

[Fisherman]

Robert:

"Fish, if Jack was at all like the man you describe, then I suspect he did have a plan for what to do if someone came from the western end - he'd probably have walked away briskly, breaking into a run if need be. And he'd have done the same if someone came from the opposite direction. The worst thing would have been to hesitate on the spot, trying to work out what to do."

Not at all - and if Crioss WAS the killer, we have proof to go with it. For IF he killed Nichols, then we can see how he just calmly conned first Paul, then Mizen and finaly the inquest, and slipped into oblivion.

How that could be " the worst thing to do" is beyond me.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Bridewell:

"Just so. People wanting to report an incident hope to find a policeman. Criminals hope not to. Cross & Paul were actively seeking a policeman. "

Cross was in the company of Paul, and he had left Nichols´ body behind, stating that he was late. He therefore joined Paul in search of a police. Just like it has been said, there was in reality no chance that they would not meet a PC on their way.

Therefore, this was what Cross knew he had to deal with.

The best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

I disagree with Fisherman here...
Cross and Paul were not actively seeking a policeman - they were carrying on their way to work and intimated that they would tell any policeman that they happened across. That is at least what they said afterwards. There could in fact have been no guarantee that they would have necessarily come across a policeman on their route. It is simply wrong to suggest otherwise just because they did happen upon Mizen. If they had missed Mizen then would they have found one somewhere down Hanbury Street? Who knows.

Robert as for the Ripper's style changing, I actually agree with what Sally said several posts above. I think he was effectively doing some macabre form of on-the-job-training. This goes for whoever was the Ripper.
I take it as alkmost a certainty that virtually all the attacks in the area would have been the responsibility of one man.That is by far the most likely scenario in my opinion and I am certain that were these attcks to occur today then that would be the police's presumption, although if they were wise they would be open minded enough not to rule out other possibilities of course.
I find it had to believe that during this narrow time period and within a closely defined geographical location, that there was more than none late night random murderer of women at large. And at other periods either side of ths time frame no such asttacks occurred.
It is not realistic to expect each attack to follow an exact blueprint. This is rarely what happens in instances of serial killing.
Tabram was also effectively left on display by the way.

I presume the Ripper whoever he was, met Polly on Whitechapel Road. This is the generally accepted and I would submit the most likely scenario. If we go with this for the sake of argument, how did they end up in Bucks Row? On who's initiative would that have been? It is almost certainly the case that Polly led the Ripper there. It is exceptionally unlikley to be the case that the punter would lead a street prostitute to the scene of an asignation. That just wouldn't have happened in reality.
So the choice of Brown's Stableyard doorway would have been Polly's. The Ripper would have had to make a rapid decision over whether he felt comfortable to continue. He would have had to decide within seconds about whether he could get away with it if disturbed given the relative distances to the dead ground by the Board School to the west and either side of Brady Street to the east. The biggest danger would be the Board School direction as it was much closer.
His mind must have had to work quickly. The human mind can work very quickly in times of stress - or rather some hiuman minds can. Some human minds effectively seize up. It happens commonly durting natural disasters or at war. Some people freeze and drown, get shot, etc.
I also strongly suspect that the Ripper, whether it was Cross or not, would have had a cover story or strategies for evasion in his mind before he committed any crimes.

Jon Guy
By the time of the Coles murder the police were much more prone to undertaking stop and search. There was an aversion to it in general however. There is an account of a policeman being sure he saw the Ripper - or a suspect that was under observation - he passed him and the suspect had a terrible aspect etc, but he couldn't stop and say anything to him or search him as this was London, England and not some forign clime where the police enjoy such cohesive powers over the populace. That was how people regarded the nature of policing at that time.

[Robert]

"Robert as for the Ripper's style changing, I actually agree with what Sally said several posts above. I think he was effectively doing some macabre form of on-the-job-training. This goes for whoever was the Ripper.
I take it as alkmost a certainty that virtually all the attacks in the area would have been the responsibility of one man.That is by far the most likely scenario in my opinion and I am certain that were these attcks to occur today then that would be the police's presumption, although if they were wise they would be open minded enough not to rule out other possibilities of course.
I find it had to believe that during this narrow time period and within a closely defined geographical location, that there was more than none late night random murderer of women at large. And at other periods either side of ths time frame no such asttacks occurred.
It is not realistic to expect each attack to follow an exact blueprint. This is rarely what happens in instances of serial killing.
Tabram was also effectively left on display by the way.

I presume the Ripper whoever he was, met Polly on Whitechapel Road. This is the generally accepted and I would submit the most likely scenario. If we go with this for the sake of argument, how did they end up in Bucks Row? On who's initiative would that have been? It is almost certainly the case that Polly led the Ripper there. It is exceptionally unlikley to be the case that the punter would lead a street prostitute to the scene of an asignation. That just wouldn't have happened in reality.
So the choice of Brown's Stableyard doorway would have been Polly's. The Ripper would have had to make a rapid decision over whether he felt comfortable to continue. He would have had to decide within seconds about whether he could get away with it if disturbed given the relative distances to the dead ground by the Board School to the west and either side of Brady Street to the east. The biggest danger would be the Board School direction as it was much closer.
His mind must have had to work quickly. The human mind can work very quickly in times of stress - or rather some hiuman minds can. Some human minds effectively seize up. It happens commonly durting natural disasters or at war. Some people freeze and drown, get shot, etc.
I also strongly suspect that the Ripper, whether it was Cross or not, would have had a cover story or strategies for evasion in his mind before he committed any crimes."

I agree with just about all of this. I'm not quite so certain that Tabram and Stride were part of the series, but they are more likely to have been than not to have been.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lechmere

Jon Guy
By the time of the Coles murder the police were much more prone to undertaking stop and search. There was an aversion to it in general however.

I agree that the Police were primed by 1891 but regarding an aversion to stop and search, I don`t know about that. I used "searched" as the search word on Old Bailey Online for the year 1887 and it seems they were quick to search.

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/search.jsp?form=searchHomePage&_divs_fulltext=searched&kwparse=and&_persNames_surname=&_persNames_given=&_persNames_alias=&_offences_offenceCategory_offenceSubcategory=&_verdicts_verdictCategory_verdictSubcategory=&_punishments_punishmentCategory_punishmentSubcategory=&_divs_div0Type_div1Type=&fromMonth=&fromYear=1887&toMonth=&toYear=1887&ref=&submit.x=63&submit.y=7&submit=Search

[lynn cates]

random

Hello Lechmere.

"I find it had to believe that during this narrow time period and within a closely defined geographical location, that there was more than one late night random murderer of women at large."

Why do you rule out the possibility that there was one attacker of women, done randomly; and, one who had a definite object in mind?

" And at other periods either side of the time frame no such attacks occurred."

Depends on the time frame. Recall that, at one time, few hesitated to consider both McKenzie and Coles imitations.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

I find it had to believe that during this narrow time period and within a closely defined geographical location, that there was more than none late night random murderer of women at large. And at other periods either side of ths time frame no such asttacks occurred.

The torso murders spring to mind...unless you reckon Cross did those too!

All the best

Dave

[Jon Guy]

Hi Robert

I presume the Ripper whoever he was, met Polly on Whitechapel Road. This is the generally accepted and I would submit the most likely scenario. If we go with this for the sake of argument, how did they end up in Bucks Row? On who's initiative would that have been? It is almost certainly the case that Polly led the Ripper there. It is exceptionally unlikley to be the case that the punter would lead a street prostitute to the scene of an asignation. That just wouldn't have happened in reality.

I don`t know. Nichols may have been quite happy to service her punter in many of the alleys like Woods Buildings, close to the main thoroughfares, but it may have been her killer urging her to go further, like Bucks Row.

[lynn cates]

meeting

Hello Robert. What of this:

1. Polly is falling down drunk and hence somewhat impaired.

2. Her quest on Whitechapel road is futile.

3. She recalls that, in times past, she has had a bit of success at Harrison and Barber's (recall Tompkins story?).

4. She meets her assailant there--he is obscured in the shadows.

5. She takes him to Buck's Row to complete the transaction she had intended.

6. Her delusional assailant, thinking HE was to get some money (recall, he owned EVERYTHING), followed her there.

7. When he ascertains her real intentions, he becomes incensed and strangles her (possibly deluded into thinking it is his wife--once again frustrating him).

8. And now, the delusion of a dead animal which must be cut up and taken to market.

9. It would be even better if the bloke traveled with a butcher's knife well ground down.

10. Had she not been impaired and desperate, she would have grasped the situation before it was too late.

Cheers.
LC

[Sally]

Height

This same Joseph Fleming was, in all likelihood, 5'7" in height. The height was originally listed as 6"7', but when coupled with the supposedly "healthy" weight of 11 stone also recorded in the entry, we have to assess the likelihood of such a gargantuan height being an error of some description. As some discerning commentators have observed, it is more likely than not that such an error occurred. Indeed, Debs’ recent suggestion that Fleming was 67 inches (i.e. 5’7”) is very persuasive, in my opinion.

Hi Ben

Just wanted to pick up on the 67 inches idea, which I must have missed. A person thinking in Decimal, rather than Imperial terms might well have recorded the total number of inches. It's a reasonable suggestion. It would certainly explain the outlandish 6' 7"

Anyway, quick foray off topic aside, back to the thorny topic of Cross....

[Sally]

The torso murders spring to mind...unless you reckon Cross did those too!

All the best

Dave

Dave,his mum lived on Pinchin Street and was a horse flesh dealer (amongst other things).

Bearing that in mind, I think he could wear the shoes of the Torso killer rather better than the Ripper's boots.

[Cogidubnus]

Quite

[Robert]

Hi Jon

Well of course I don't know, but I feel that if Polly had wanted to do the deed in a more secluded spot, he'd have settled for that, even if there was a greater risk of finding himself trapped. After all, 29 Hanbury was a bit of a trap. With Eddowes, the other one of his "classical" murders which took place on the open street, the murder was committed in front of some gates, and I'm wondering if both Polly and Kate led the killer to the gates in the hope that the gates would not be locked.

Lynn, could you refresh my memory on the Tomkins story?

[lynn cates]

Tomkins

Hello Robert. Tomkins said that "women sometimes came up to the gates."

My (admittedly inductive) inference is that Polly and some others had occasionally come to the Harrison Barber premises to solicit--not without a modicum of success. That would explain why Tomkins said of women that he didn't like them--not that he was a woman hater but perhaps that he wished not to admit to spending an occasional 4d on one.

It could also explain why Polly, after her obvious lack of success, headed that way as a default option.

Cheers.
LC