Who was the first clothes-puller?

[curious]

Curious:

"Lechmere, did the Cross family have a child born in 1888 or early 1889?"

Iīm not Lechmere, but I can inform you that they had a daughter in 1888, who died in 1890. I donīt remember the exact dates, but I feel pretty certain that the child was born before the Whitechapel murders began.

May I command you on your good thinking relating to Thomas Cross? Policemen are often authoritative figures, just like you say.

The best,
Fisherman

We currently have a young man in our town, still a teenager, who is accused of killing his policeman father because of the abuse. It's a common theme.

[curious]

Found it! There is apparently a birth certificate dated 2 March 1888,and a death certificate dated 8 October 1890 for this daughter.

The best,
Fisherman

and how many children did they already have?

What in the world is more stressful than a sick child? You are completely helpless.

Oh, goodness, that poor family.

[Fisherman]

I think they had eight of them before that daughter was born, Curious. Not completely certain, though.

The best,
Fisherman

[Robert]

I don't quite follow the reasoning here. If the death of the daughter is a reason for the murders coming to an end, then the reason for the murders coming to an end occurs 15 months after the last murder (if one includes McKenzie). And of course if one includes Coles, then the murders didn't come to an end.

[Rubyretro]

When were the Torso murders ? They are included, but not Coles, I think.

[Robert]

Hi Ruby

Well if the torso murders are going to be included, it kind of nullifies the point about Nichols's dress being pulled down, which wasn't typical, so there had to be a reason etc. The torso murders weren't exactly in JTR's style.

[Fisherman]

As for myself, I cannot provide the reason why he stopped. I know Lechmere has done a lot of thinking about the issue, but that will have to stand for him. We can only observe that if he WAS the Ripper, then he DID stop. And we may also need to acknowledge that other serialists HAVE stopped, like for example Rader.
A possibility that has been suggested and that I feel may tally with my mental image of the man, is that he simply grew tired with it. Got bored, sort of - it did not provide the thrill it had from the outset, and therefore he stopped.
Maybe, if this holds true, he may have wanted to try his hand at other methods of killing and disposing the victims. If so, then it may be a lead to a connection between him and one or more of the torso killings. Just a thought, though, and as Harry would say, I have no evidence to go with it.

The best,
Fisherman

[Robert]

Hi Fish

Well yes, maybe he just got tired of it. That seems possible. I also find the idea of a Ripper, who resented or blamed his mother, removing women's wombs psychologically credible.

Of course, we do need evidence that Cross did in fact have problems with his mother. Do we know anything of the mother's tombstone inscription - anything like that?

[lynn cates]

uterus

Hello Robert. I can see what you mean, but, of course Polly kept hers intact.

Cheers.
LC

[Robert]

Hi Lynn

Yes, she kept a tight hold of it. And I suppose if Cross is deemed to have done Tabram through to McKenzie, that makes only two wombs taken away out of 7 murders, while only three wombs were actually extracted (and of those, Kelly's doesn't really count since everything else was extracted too).

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

Hello Robert. I can see what you mean, but, of course Polly kept hers intact.

Cheers.

He was still learning. However, he was disturbed. It seems that Polly's intestines had moved (although this might have been when her body was being transported), and he may have gone on to remove her uterus, had he been given more time.

[lynn cates]

counting uteri

Hello Robert. That's good accounting.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

they seek after a sign . . .

Hello Ruby. Any signs that he was disturbed?

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

I think they had eight of them before that daughter was born, Curious. Not completely certain, though.

The best,
Fisherman

Any idea why the baby died? I immediately thought a sick baby, but it could have been an accident.

Also, I think that if the family had a sick baby and perhaps his wife had had a difficult delivery, an innocent C/L would have not told the wife of finding the body and testifying at the inquest. I had thought the wife might be fragile.

IF there was a sick baby and a fragile wife, 7 or 8 other children, no sex, then C/L might have been a time bomb that might have quit killing when some of the stress was relieved. The occasional death, such as Coles, might be an indication of another build up of stress. (I do get that most people don't react to stress by cutting people open)

However, since we are considering C/L as a possible candidate for JtR, then we need to explore what caused the deaths of his stepfathers. Were they natural deaths?

[curious]

Debra A posted this earlier today on the thread about the possible photos of Mary Jane Kelley . . .

"A while back, Rob Clack made me copies of the huge police files on the unsolved murder of Harriett Buswell (as well as Emma Jackson's which was a similar type of murder). Reading through the Buswell investigation makes me wonder how much really is missing from the Whitechapel murder files.

"The Met. police in the Buswell case covered every single angle of investigation and noted every bit of it. All previous lovers/acquaintances/friends were interviewed and detailed statements taken. All Harriett's personal letters and photographs were kept in the police file and thoroughly investigated, police went through her personal photo album and traced everyone who's picture appeared in it through the photographic details on the back and going to that photographer for a name.

"They went to the town Harriet was born and brought up in and traced all family members (however distantly related) and old childhood friends. Even though she had siblings who were known to police, the photographs and letters remain in the police file, the siblings were allowed to claim her clothing and jewelry and this had to be done formally and the request is also in the file.

I can't begin to describe the scale and thoroughness of the investigation conducted to catch Harriett's killer, which they never did, even armed with all this information.
What I'm waffling on about I suppose, is that I can't imagine the Met's procedures would have changed all that much in 15 years,certainly I can't imagine they became less thorough in their investigative techniques."


Now, bearing that in mind, can we really believe there was not a thorough investigation into C/L's background? To my mind, knowing they did such a complete job on another case, don't we have to acknowledge that is is likely the authorities totally checked him out?

To my mind, knowing this, it makes C/L much less viable a candidate.