Who was the first clothes-puller?

[lynn cates]

job

Hello Christer. Thanks. Perhaps one could even adapt the "stuck in a dead end job" angle as part of his reason for killing?

Cheers.
LC

[Robert]

Hi Sally

Lechmere seems to have done a typo of 23 instead of 33 for the marriage.

[Sally]

What a revenge on his despised first step-father! But I don't think you've yet proved that he did despise his step-father.

Cross named his first son Thomas, after his stepfather, presumably. It was what people did - name their children after relatives. Funny way of showing his resentment. Why not, for example, call his son John, after his biological father, if he resented his stepfather? Odd, that.

And also - what's this about Thomas Cross being 23 when he married Maria Cross in 1858? In the 1861 census he's listed as being 36?

[Fisherman]

David:

" But he was not. It was dark. He could just walk.
If Cross-the-Ripper had had no time to leave, Paul would have caught him red-handed, or at least, would have had a "good look" at the Ripper at work."

Thatīs surmising, David. And "walk" would not have been a choice at any rate; it was staying or running. And the pulled down dress is an almighty pointer to how Cross/Lechmere may have reasoned; "Damn it, where did HE come from ...? Do I run ...? No, too risky, letīs play it cool, he hasnīt seen me yet ..."

The salient point, David, is that much as you would like to know, you simply donīt.

The best,
Fisherman

[DVV]

David:
" the safest thing to do was to leave the scene before Paul could have a good look at him."

But if Paul was so close that Cross could not leave without being seen leaving?
Fisherman

Hi Fish. But he was not. It was dark. He could just walk.
If Cross-the-Ripper had had no time to leave, Paul would have caught him red-handed, or at least, would have had a "good look" at the Ripper at work.

[Fisherman]

Robert:

" The real risk was when Cross came face to face with Mizen."

It was! But Cross/Lechmere knew exactly how to navigate those waters, I think.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Curious:

" by appearing at a policeman together, it seemed they had discovered the woman together. "

Exactly so, Curious!

The best,
Fisherman

[Robert]

Fish, it wasn't so much a question of what Paul would do. Paul would have inhibited Cross from "detoxifying" himself, if I can use that modern expression. The real risk was when Cross came face to face with Mizen. You might argue that this would have given Cross a kick - standing in front of a policeman, with a bloody knife in his pocket, and pulling the wool over his eyes. What a revenge on his despised first step-father! But I don't think you've yet proved that he did despise his step-father.

The idea of Cross as a controller fits nicely with 29 Hanbury, because you have the cat's meat link and the packing cases link (presumably used then, as now, for removals). That would imply that Cross chose the venue, rather than Annie. But of course in that case, Cross would be taking a risk if he committed a murder at a house where he was possibly known.

[curious]

Robert:

" I'm saying that in that case, he would above all have wanted to be on his own."

But he KNEW that he would be on his own sooner or later, so what was the rush? Why act suspiciously and look nervous if he did not have to? I think, Robert, that Cross/Lechmere was a very resourceful man, quite ingenious and a skilful improviser. He may well have enjoyed the situation, as long as he controlled it himself.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi, everyone,

IF Cross/Lechmere were the killer, then I suspect his reason for going with Paul was, indeed, about control.

He needed to know exactly what was said to the police. Left to his own devices, Paul might have worded things in such a way that Cross/Lechmere would sound suspicious. C/L preferred to be sure exactly what was said. So, he said it himself.

However, the two going together had another bonus, whether C/L was smart enough to do it because of this or not. But, by appearing at a policeman together, it seemed they had discovered the woman together. Yes, even after their individual stories were told, still, they were close enough together that it seemed a joint effort.

Therefore, both appeared innocent, no matter how long the first had been alone with the woman.

[Fisherman]

Lynn:

"So, a clever chap stuck in a carman's situation?"

Absolutely, Lynn. I myself can point to a guy from my own past, working summertime at a meat packing factory. One of the employees there was an extremely quick thinker. I have often wondered what he did at that job.
In Crossīcase we must also consider that it was a lot harder to travel inbetween classes in the Victorian society than it is today.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

David:

" the safest thing to do was to leave the scene before Paul could have a good look at him."

But if Paul was so close that Cross could not leave without being seen leaving? What do you think Paul would have done when he reached the body, if he had seen the damage? Raised the alarm, probably. And just how good an idea would it be to be on the run then, possibly heading towards a PC or two, with Paul following behind?

The potential result of a dash could be utter mayhem.

The result of taking it easy and improvising the way out was a cool, coleected walk down Hanbury Street, after having wawed goodbye to a PC who was convinced he had just spoken to two upright citizens.

Which would you prefer yourself, David?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Robert:

" I'm saying that in that case, he would above all have wanted to be on his own."

But he KNEW that he would be on his own sooner or later, so what was the rush? Why act suspiciously and look nervous if he did not have to? I think, Robert, that Cross/Lechmere was a very resourceful man, quite ingenious and a skilful improviser. He may well have enjoyed the situation, as long as he controlled it himself.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

clever

Hello Christer. Yes, that's basically it.

So, a clever chap stuck in a carman's situation? Very well.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Lynn:

"It seems that, given the views I see in this thread, Paul's appearance was not anticipated. So I wonder if his Cross substitution were planned or spontaneous?"

Cross/Lechmere was in my view a very fast thinker and an opportunist that was able to improvise in an extremely useful manner, if thatīs what you are asking about, Lynn!

The best,
Fisherman

[Rubyretro]

Hi, Rubyretro,

I don't seek to take issue with any of this.

The problem is that Cross would have acted just as he did, even as the innocent man he purported to be. I can't see that his actions on the day can be interpreted as evidence of guilt, when they are equally capable of innocent explanation.

Regards, Bridewell.

Of course. I have to remind you, Bridewell, that I have another 'favourite suspect' other than Cross, so that I am not 100% convinced either.

Still, I think that it is not one single detail which makes Cross a good suspect,
it is the weight of all the details taken together. I'm not talking about just Buck's Row, but across the whole of the case.