Who was the first clothes-puller?

[DVV]

This is the problem I have, David. Polly Nichols was killed in the street on Bucks Row. It was inevitable that her body would be found, either by a policeman or by someone on their way to work. Hey Presto! Someone did find the body and flagged down the next person who walked by (which is exactly what I would have done!). Could he have been JtR? Of course he could, but the only evidence of any kind, so far published, is that he found the body, which someone was always going to do. The rest, it seems to me, is a combination of conjecture and wishful thinking.
Regards, Bridewell.

Agreed. Basically, I see no difference between Cross-Lechmere and people like Reeves, Davis, Diemshitz, Watkins, Bowyer, Thompson. That was one of the first remarks I made to Fish.
The only thing to baulk at would be the use of "Cross" instead of "Lechmere", but as Ben pointed out, Cross can't be considered an alias.

[Abby Normal]

Hi, Abby,

As these killings are suggestive of rage, I would have thought it more likely to be a reason for carrying on. That doesn't fit the Cross / Lechmere scenario though, does it?

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell
I was just going to reply to Lech when i saw your response. Yes One would think it more likely that the death of a family member would be a stressor that could be the trigger to start killing.

[Bridewell]

Hi Lech

How is the death of family members a reason to stop killing?

Hi, Abby,

As these killings are suggestive of rage, I would have thought it more likely to be a reason for carrying on. That doesn't fit the Cross / Lechmere scenario though, does it?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

If & Maybe

If he had a grudge due to his mother being with another man other than his father then the death of his step father may have been a break. Similarly the death of his baby daughter may have given him pause for thought about life death and everything.

Lechmere,

Sincere thanks for all the hard work you've done on Cross. You've obviously uncovered a lot of new material of genuine interest. He found a body and, because of that could have been the killer. So could Pc Watkins, on that basis, but you need more than ifs, buts and maybes to make a case for Cross. If he was, I hope you find it, but nothing posted so far is persuasive of guilt in my view.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Originally Posted by Bridewell
What exactly is the case against Cross when "surmising" is taken out of the equation?

Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell.
Good question.
Not much, I reckon.


This is the problem I have, David. Polly Nichols was killed in the street on Bucks Row. It was inevitable that her body would be found, either by a policeman or by someone on their way to work. Hey Presto! Someone did find the body and flagged down the next person who walked by (which is exactly what I would have done!). Could he have been JtR? Of course he could, but the only evidence of any kind, so far published, is that he found the body, which someone was always going to do. The rest, it seems to me, is a combination of conjecture and wishful thinking.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

His Blood-Soaked Pocket

Bridewell:

Where is the evidence that Cross was carrying a knife?"

His bloodsoaked pocket is the evidence, Bridewell!

Now you're talking. Can you point me towards the evidence that his pocket was bloodstained?

"What exactly is the case against Cross when "surmising" is taken out of the equation? "

Strikes on his workway on workdays,

Evidence for "strikes" by Cross? Non-existent? He went to work on workdays.

a strike on the way to his mother on a Saturday night

Evidence for "a strike" by Cross? Non-existent? He probably visited his mother.

his giving a name he did not use when signing official documents

= Was known by two different names.

, his standing over Nicholsī dead body with no knowing on our part how long he head been there,

He found a body. Evidence that he did any more than that?

the pulled-down dress

Pulled down by whom? The killer? Almost certainly? Cross? Only if he was the killer.

Find more on another suspect, and I will congratulate you on these boards. I may even sing.

I can live without the singing.

If it isnīt enough, maybe we should close the site down ...?

The best,
Fisherman

In order to justify closing the site down, it would be necessary to satisfy the vast majority of its members that you and Lechmere have proved your case. I don't think you've come anywhere near achieving that.

I'm not seeking to belittle Lechmere's efforts here. He's obviously done a great deal of research along a very worthwhile line of enquiry. He's certainly uncovered a great deal of new material, for which he is rightly congratulated. What I have difficulty with is the presumption that the most disreputable interpretation of Cross/Lechmere's actions is being set up, by default, as the correct one. I see no objective justification for doing so.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Lechmere]

If he had a grudge due to his mother being with another man other than his father then the death of his step father may gave been a break. Similarly the death of his baby daughter may have given him pause for thought about life death and everthing.
I suggest you read read the discussion about pollys clothe, the mizen meeting and so on.

[Abby Normal]

And the death of his step father.
And like it or not Paul did 'find' cross effectively over the body.
Abby - numerous red flags quite apart from the name swap hVe been 'flagged up' in this thread.
The knife issue is one that apies to ever single potential culprit - any could obtain a sharp knife if need be. It would not have been difficult.

Hi Lech
how is the death of family memebers a reason to stop killing?

Abby - numerous red flags quite apart from the name swap hVe been 'flagged up' in this thread.

Other than the name swop-there are no other red flags for lech. Nothing else is suspicious in of itself with Lech's behaviour.

[DVV]

What exactly is the case against Cross when "surmising" is taken out of the equation?

Bridewell.

Hi Bridewell.
Good question.
Not much, I reckon.

[Lechmere]

And the death of his step father.
And like it or not Paul did 'find' cross effectively over the body.
Abby - numerous red flags quite apart from the name swap hVe been 'flagged up' in this thread.
The knife issue is one that apies to ever single potential culprit - any could obtain a sharp knife if need be. It would not have been difficult.

[Rubyretro]

Also, there is a credible reason why, if Hutch was the ripper, he ceased killing.
You mentioned that there is one for Lech. What is it?

[/QUOTE]

I think he means the death of a daughter, if my memory serves me right.

[Abby Normal]

Ben - you seem to have missed the point. I think numerous aspects relating to cross are highly suspicious - I have listed them. However they would not have seemed so suspicious to the police at the time for reasons I have also stated. This is in contrast to Hutchinson who was suspicious by the police's reckoning at the time and his involvement came at the very height of the scare when police resources devoted to the case were at their height and every lead was being followed up.

Harry - I know you favour Hutchinson. Do you apply the same evidential test in that case?

Hi lech

Since we are comparing Hutch and lech-i see only one possible red flag with Lech, while Hutch has 4:

Lech:
1. gave police his other name

Hutch
1. Gave a highly dubious and overly detailed description of a suspect
2. Admitted to stalking/spying behavior
3. Only came forward after the inquest
4. seeminly dropped as a credible witness shortlyt after (although by far should have been the best witness in the case).



Also, there is a credible reason why, if Hutch was the ripper, he ceased killing.
You mentioned that there is one for Lech. What is it?

[Rubyretro]

To be exact, Cross/Lechmere was never obliged to kill only with his working knife. If he felt like it, he could bring any knife he wanted to along as he hit the streets.

I canīt believe we are discussing this...

The best,
Fisherman

I only started speculating on a work knife because someone asked the question 'how do we know that Cross even had a knife ?' and I wanted to point out that he must have been carrying a knife.

Of course, he could have had a work knife and a separate murder knife.

I think that it is interesting to think about what sorts of knives he might have needed for work, to see if they fit. If they don't it doesn't exclude him from being the murderer, does it.

[lynn cates]

Get teh point?

Hello Christer. But perhaps we should be. As you recall, the knife used on Polly and Annie was not all that common. Inquest decided that it was a surgical one (as in Phoenix Park or dissection) or possibly a butcher's knife--but well ground down.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

To be exact, Cross/Lechmere was never obliged to kill only with his working knife. If he felt like it, he could bring any knife he wanted to along as he hit the streets.

I canīt believe we are discussing this...

The best,
Fisherman