Who was the first clothes-puller?

[harry]

As Harry would say,'I have no evidence to go with it'
As Fisherman has said"Persons there at the time were in a better position to make judgements'.
I came from a family of eleven children.One,a girl ,died at the age of eighteen months.My father grieved.He did not become a serial killer.

[curious]

And women!!!

absolutely!

[KatBradshaw]

And women!!!

[curious]

Curious:

"Any idea why the baby died?"

None whatsoever, I´m afraid.

The best,
Fisherman

So, we have the death date, but not ???? I can't remember what the document is called that states cause of death.

Maybe there will be info turn up somewhere. If they had a sick baby for months, that had to be devastating for the family.

[curious]

I was. Retired in 2004 after 30 years service. I realise that you weren't accusing all the boys in blue & there are some, as you say, who abuse their position - small minority though. I haven't taken offence btw - just had to respond in some small way

Regards, Bridewell.

That's cool. AFTER I had written, I thought about all the fellas in blue who are on the boards and know so much more than I ever will about detecting.

Actually, I appreciate the service of the men in blue and realize it's a very difficult job.

[Fisherman]

Curious:

"Any idea why the baby died?"

None whatsoever, I´m afraid.

The best,
Fisherman

[Bridewell]

Was

Tell me, Bridewell, were/are you one of the good guys?

I was. Retired in 2004 after 30 years service. I realise that you weren't accusing all the boys in blue & there are some, as you say, who abuse their position - small minority though. I haven't taken offence btw - just had to respond in some small way

Regards, Bridewell.

[curious]

Hi, Bridewell,
After I posted that, I expected trouble. My opinion happens to be that most policemen are ok, perhaps jaded after all they see. I believe that most go into law enforcement to protect and better their communities.

That being said, however, there are bad'uns in every profession, and with authoritarian types, abuse does happen. It is in the news fairly frequently.

I am not convinced either way about C/L being JtR. I believe there is enough in his background and in his situation at the time of the murders to make a very thorough check reasonable.

Tell me, Bridewell, were/are you one of the good guys?

[Bridewell]

Really?

We currently have a young man in our town, still a teenager, who is accused of killing his policeman father because of the abuse. It's a common theme.

Is it? How many of the policemen, past and present, who subscribe to these boards have abused their children and turned them into serial killers? Come on now; don't be shy

Regards, Bridewell.

[curious]

I shouldn't think that they did check him out throughout the series.

They were looking for a mad man, or a foreigner, or someone with an unstable life living in lodging houses, or a butcher, or someone with a connection to the victims.

They didn't have the knowledge of serial killers that we have today i.e. they might be people with wives and jobs who look perfectly normal on the surface.
Serial killers manage to commit serial killings just by dint of appearing normal
and not raising suspicions.

Don't get me wrong. I believe C/L should be checked out very thoroughly, including the deaths of his stepfathers and anyone else associated with him. There might be a surprising pattern emerge.

However, I feel much better about the force. Polly Nichols' death was very early on, so I think they likely investigated it as an individual murder.

A man found alone with a body has to be suspicious -- if they were thorough, as it sounds as though they were.

On the other hand, IF he were responsible for Nichols' death C/L was a very quick-thinking, convincing liar. Really on his toes. And as has been pointed out, everything that can be taken as his guilt, also has a reasonable explanation.

He's not off my list yet, but feeling that he was likely investigated closely makes we wonder what we can possibly discover new at this far remove.


Ruby, you added a graph on me -- some serial killers are more clever than the authorities -- C/L might be one of them, but I am not close to being convinced.

For instance: How do you envision C/L and the GSG and apron?

and your: "They were looking for a mad man or a foreigner": They arrived at that conclusion as the investigation developed. If they were as thorough as Debra A's research shows, then they did not arrive at the conclusion lightly, but after looking very closely at everything.

[Rubyretro]

However, the stable job and family life could possibly have thrown them off, but I feel reasonably sure, they would have keep checking on him throughout the series.

I shouldn't think that they did check him out throughout the series.

They were looking for a mad man, or a foreigner, or someone with an unstable life living in lodging houses, or a butcher, or someone with a connection to the victims.

They didn't have the knowledge of serial killers that we have today i.e. they might be people with wives and jobs who look perfectly normal on the surface.
Serial killers manage to commit serial killings just by dint of appearing normal
and not raising suspicions.

Moreover, Cross went to the Police of his own accord and appeared at the inquest. I don't think that the Police would associate that behaviour with that of the culprit. However we know today that serial killers think that they cleverer than the Police, and they like pulling the wool over their eyes.

[curious]

But Curious, Harriet Buswell was the murder victim, Cross was a witness.

Cross was the first person found with a murder victim. If the police were that thorough, they would have checked him out completely.

However, the stable job and family life could possibly have thrown them off, but I feel reasonably sure, they would have keep checking on him throughout the series.

When you have a person alone with a body, there is always that possibility -- and I'm not law enforcement. They had certainly seen more than I ever will -- I hope.

[Rubyretro]

But Curious, Harriet Buswell was the murder victim, Cross was a witness.

[Bridewell]

Agreed

However I tend against the view that prostitites tend to be attacked because they are prostitutes per se. They tend to be attacked because they are vulnerable women out alone late at night and who take men to secluded spots.

Hi Lechmere

At least there are some things on which we are in agreement!

Regards, Bridewell.

[curious]

Debra A posted this earlier today on the thread about the possible photos of Mary Jane Kelley . . .

"A while back, Rob Clack made me copies of the huge police files on the unsolved murder of Harriett Buswell (as well as Emma Jackson's which was a similar type of murder). Reading through the Buswell investigation makes me wonder how much really is missing from the Whitechapel murder files.

"The Met. police in the Buswell case covered every single angle of investigation and noted every bit of it. All previous lovers/acquaintances/friends were interviewed and detailed statements taken. All Harriett's personal letters and photographs were kept in the police file and thoroughly investigated, police went through her personal photo album and traced everyone who's picture appeared in it through the photographic details on the back and going to that photographer for a name.

"They went to the town Harriet was born and brought up in and traced all family members (however distantly related) and old childhood friends. Even though she had siblings who were known to police, the photographs and letters remain in the police file, the siblings were allowed to claim her clothing and jewelry and this had to be done formally and the request is also in the file.

I can't begin to describe the scale and thoroughness of the investigation conducted to catch Harriett's killer, which they never did, even armed with all this information.
What I'm waffling on about I suppose, is that I can't imagine the Met's procedures would have changed all that much in 15 years,certainly I can't imagine they became less thorough in their investigative techniques."


Now, bearing that in mind, can we really believe there was not a thorough investigation into C/L's background? To my mind, knowing they did such a complete job on another case, don't we have to acknowledge that is is likely the authorities totally checked him out?

To my mind, knowing this, it makes C/L much less viable a candidate.