Right-Handed? Left-Handed?

[Chava]

According to the police files, Nicholls was found with bruising on her face. Llewellyn thought there was a possible thumb mark to the right of her lower jaw, and corresponding finger(?) marks on the left jaw. Her throat was cut left to right.

I have a couple of problems with this:

Firstly, if she was grabbed and cut from behind, and the killer put his hand over her face to keep her quiet. and considering that the cuts on her throat began from the left, that suggests a right-handed killer. He puts his left hand on her face. However the 'thumb mark' (and I think it's likely a thumb mark, fingers would have left a wider more diffuse bruise) is on the victim's right jaw. If he's behind her, his thumb would have been on her left jaw.

Let's now assume he cuts her throat from the front. He is still right-handed. He puts his left hand across her face to keep her quiet. His thumb is still on the left hand side of her jaw, fingers on the right. I think in that position, if he's right-handed, he cuts from left to right. If he cuts the other way it's an unnatural movement with less power because he's cutting with his palm up rather than down

If he is left-handed and cuts from behind, the bruises are in the right position, but the throat slash isn't. He'd cut from right to left.. If he cuts from the front, again the bruises are in the right position but the throat slash isn't. He would cut from right to left.

So let's assume he cuts while she's on the ground. He holds one hand over her face to keep her quiet while he cuts her. Even if he does this, unless he is actually squatting behind her head, there is a problem with the bruises and the cuts. In fact I think he must have been squatting behind her, because if he was directly in front of her he'd get blood-splatter. How does he prevent her struggle and clawing at him with her hands? Well that's where the bruising comes in! He puts his hand across her mouth and nose to stop her breathing until she passes out. If this is what happened, then I have to assume he's left-handed. However there is no talk of petechial haemorrage in the eyes or any other sign of asphyxiation.

I don't have any answers here. Just questions...

[FrankO]

Hi Chava,

If he’s squatting or kneeling at the right side of her head while she’s on her back, puts his left hand over her mouth and perhaps nose to keep her from breathing or screaming, or, rather, just to steady her head and than cuts her throat with his right hand from left to right, then everything fits.

He would not get much blood on him because the flow would be directed away from him. The bruises of the fingers would be on her left cheek or jaw, and the thumb print would be low on her left jaw. Judging from the slight laceration of the tongue, it’s my idea that he first strangled her into unconsciousness, then lowered her on her back and then squatted at her right side to cut her throat.

If he would have put a hand - whichever - over her mouth from behind, the thumb print would end up somewhere at nose level and not low on her jaw.

All the best,
Frank

[Trevor Marriott]

If it is to be accepted that all the murders were committed by the same person then the killer was clearly right handed. The wound on Eddowes neck clearly confirms that fact.

But i am sure as always there are those out there who will disagree just for the sake of it.

[perrymason]

Hi Chava,

There are some issues with trying to sort out the manner and position from which he cuts all the "Canonicals" throats, for example in the Kelly case it almost must be from the victims left side, either from over her or while on the bed himself, or while standing at her left side.

I agree with you on one observation you made, if the killer cuts Pollys throat while kneeling over her, a left to right cut would be more easily made with his palm facing upwards, the reverse if he does it with his left hand. For a right handed man over the victim, the left to right cuts are an issue. From behind, they aren't. But in Polly case, and likely Kates, they were almost certainly lying down...which eliminates a cut from behind them.

I look at it this way....when using a knife to make a specific cut with a right hand from above her, it would be handled more like a surgeon would handle a scalpel, the thumb on the hilt, palm facing upwards, and moving the blade from right to left....as she lay, that translates to a left to right cut on her.

Why I suggest that is because with that position it is easy to keep your eye on the blades leading edge and the line of the cut youre making.

Best regards Chava, all.

[Chava]

I agree, Michael. But that suggests that she is completely subdued at the moment he kills her. Otherwise he is holding her down and gets her blood all over him. If she is in fact unconscious at that point, how does that happen? Because the bitten tongue and the bruising is all the evidence we have for strangulation, and it isn't nearly enough! There's no suggestion of a blow to the head or anything else of that nature. However there's also no suggestion of arterial spurt. So maybe she was dead or almost dead before he cut her throat. But how?

[perrymason]

I agree, Michael. But that suggests that she is completely subdued at the moment he kills her. Otherwise he is holding her down and gets her blood all over him. If she is in fact unconscious at that point, how does that happen? Because the bitten tongue and the bruising is all the evidence we have for strangulation, and it isn't nearly enough! There's no suggestion of a blow to the head or anything else of that nature. However there's also no suggestion of arterial spurt. So maybe she was dead or almost dead before he cut her throat. But how?

Hi Chava,

For me this is one of the most important features of a Ripper crime, one I think must appear in the evidence to allow a Canonization,... and I share your bewilderment. Plus.... he does this silently.

I think a reasonable few of the possibilities are strangulation or garroting, a choke hold of some kind,...just tripping them and pouncing on them is out because they would have made some exclamation like the one Liz made in Schwartz's story, and likely struggled a bit...and he cant have cut the throats while they stood in Pollys case, or Kates case, or Liz's case...there is no arterial spray evidence in those murders that supports that.

My guesses are choke hold, or he uses something that the police could not detect or would not have tested for as an anesthetic. That second suggestion makes him taking an apron section interesting, because he could have used his handkerchief to cover her mouth with...with some substance on it, and needed something to later wrap the organs in. He may have choked Annie and not needed a "substance"...he may have opted for some substance due to the potentially precarious location Mitre Square presented...there were some 7 or 8 active or retired police within hearing range, and 4 that interacted with the square itself ...Morris, Harvey, Watkins, Pearce.

He really needed the quiet there. Arguably in Hanbury too....but at that venue its locals that might come upon him, not the police. A scared resident or 2 might back off from a man with a bloody knife...a cop wouldnt.

Anyway, sorry for digressing......its clear that the authorities believed at least 3 women were on the ground when they were first cut, C1-C2-C4,... perhaps also C3 with Liz Stride, so for him to be making left to right cuts on these women he has to be above their heads while they lay there, or kneeling beside them or between their legs.

With those kinds of options, I can see the right handed man with his palm facing up as we discussed, or if from above their head, palm down. A backhanded slash with his left hand is possible, not from above her head though ...but I wonder, does he need to cover her mouth with the other hand or use it to brace himself somehow?

I think in the case of Kelly, thats a left handed man...not just thinking about the throat cut.....all the cuts would be easier with his left hand cutting and his right placing things either slightly behind on the table or around Mary.

All the best Chava

[Artemis]

In 1888, as well as now, in any police investigation, direction is always from the victim's perspective, i.e. her right is your left.

The bruise on the jaw of Polly Nichols could be an indicator that she was struck as per the coroner's inquest. The position of her bonnet can be an indicator of her head striking the fence. The bruises could also be caused from the killer not strangling Polly but pushing her head backwards to expose the throat. This would be done with his right hand thus placing his right thumb on the right side of her face and slicing from left to right.

In short, she may have been punched to stun her and once she was on the ground her neck was exposed by pushing back her head.

Also, the only full proof way to avoid or shut off arterial spray is to kill the victim before cutting the throat. The only other way is to make the cut fast and with extreme prejudice by cutting the vagus nerve which lies between the carotid artery and the jugular vein. The vagus nerve controls the heart and once it is severed the heart stops.

Because of the severing of the vagus nerve, most decapitations do not have arterial spray but rather just dumps the blood like pouring it out of a bucket. The lack of blood may be explained by the fact that the vagus nerve was severed or Polly was dead before she hit the ground. Regardless, the throat would had to have been cut while she was on the ground because gravity would have taken over and the blood would have been contained in her body save what was already in her neck.

On a side note: US Army Rangers are trained to grab a sentry from behind, shove the bayonet with the cutting edge of the blade outwards (facing the same direction as the target) just behind the ear and push outwards thus severing the carotid, jugular and vagus nerve in one action thus eliminating any arterial spray.

[Gman992]

How about he strangles them to make them pass out, lays them down--face up--knees in right of them, grabs their hair with his left hand, and with knife in right hand-thumb's pointing to his chest--slashs their throats left to right.

[corey123]

There would then be a blood spray every time on the ground.

[Wickerman]

According to the police files, Nicholls was found with bruising on her face. Llewellyn thought there was a possible thumb mark to the right of her lower jaw, and corresponding finger(?) marks on the left jaw. Her throat was cut left to right.

I have a couple of problems with this:

I don't think the bruises on the face were the result of any attempted strangulation, rather she was laid out semi conscious on the ground and pressure was applied to her face:



Llewellyn's testimony reads:
"There was a bruise running along the lower part of the jaw on the right side of the face. That might have been caused by a blow from a fist or pressure from a thumb"
"There was a circular bruise on the left side of the face, which also might have been inflicted by the pressure of the fingers".

Which suggests to me the killer placed his left hand across her face while she lay on her back,..



Therefore, he sliced her throat with the knife in his right hand.

Regards, Jon.

[FrankO]

Great drawings, Jon! They depict exactly what I wrote in the 2nd post of this thread.

Best,
Frank