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  • #31
    Originally posted by GUT View Post
    All her work is excellent.

    One reason is she sticks to the facts and doesn't over egg the pudding.
    Thanks GUT, that's very kind of you to say.
    ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

    I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Debra A View Post
      Thanks, Gary. I take it that Rochester is close to Chatham and that Minverva Street is just off the Old Bethnal Green Road then?
      I believe they are.

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      • #33
        Just a quick question - do we know where Polly Nichols was in the 1881 census please?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by MysterySinger View Post
          Just a quick question - do we know where Polly Nichols was in the 1881 census please?
          I don't think we do.
          There are a lot of possibles. One I have considered is a woman who took to the casual wards around 1881. Southwark first and also maybe Mile End in April 81, although the Mile End Polly said she wasn't married.
          ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

          I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

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          • #35
            Thanks. I note that for Lambeth there seem to be a couple of census pages that were unreadable and wondered if she might originally have been on one of those. I'll take a look at the ones you mention.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by MysterySinger View Post
              Thanks. I note that for Lambeth there seem to be a couple of census pages that were unreadable and wondered if she might originally have been on one of those. I'll take a look at the ones you mention.
              Hi MS

              Thanks. That's probably the explanation because the Lambeth, Renfrew Road workhouse creed register has a Mary Ann Nichols aged 39, charwoman being admitted on 8 February 1881 and discharged on 26th May 1881 (136 years to the day!) which covers the date of the census, meaning she was there for the 1881 census as some books have stated.

              This rules out the Mary Ann Nichols in Newington casual ward that I mentioned earlier, appearing several times in 1881 and born in 1852, the same year of birth given by Mary Ann Nichols in the Lambeth workhouse and other institutions in 1887/88.


              Strangely, the older Mary Ann Nichols (49) who appears in the 1881 census at Lambeth workhouse is in the same creed register too, further down the same page, but is noted as being admitted May 26th 1881 and discharged June 17th to police. So she wasn't there for the census but is listed on the census for that institution!
              That's odd.

              Mary Ann Monk also appears in this same Lambeth workhouse Renfrew Road creed register for 1880/81
              Last edited by Debra A; 05-26-2017, 02:10 AM.
              ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

              I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

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              • #37
                By 1883, another woman named Mary Ann Nichols is also using the same Lambeth workhouse. Her age is listed as 35. The two other MA Nichols aged 39/40 and 49/50 are also still regularly listed.
                ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Good info Debs.

                  I don't know about you but I find some of the workhouse records rather sad. For example one of Martha Tabram's sons was admitted to Westminster Union Workhouse on 1st June 1878 "chgd with begging". Charles Henry Tabram was all of 5 years old!

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by MysterySinger View Post
                    Good info Debs.

                    I don't know about you but I find some of the workhouse records rather sad. For example one of Martha Tabram's sons was admitted to Westminster Union Workhouse on 1st June 1878 "chgd with begging". Charles Henry Tabram was all of 5 years old!
                    Thanks, MS. I do find the workhouse records very sad sometimes but they give us a chance to glimpse aspects of these women's lives that we wouldn't ordinarily know about. Thanks for the info on Charles, it led me to the entry that noted Martha's children had been sent to her in prison. In his 'Fallen Women' piece, the Reverend Merrick wrote that several of the victims had been in Millbank Prison in their pasts and as the research has gone on over the years, that idea doesn't seem as ridiculous as some first thought!
                    ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                    I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by GUT View Post
                      I've got numerous ancestors who "fudged it" with their age.

                      Some to marry
                      Some to go to war
                      Some to get work

                      Etc.

                      Age and names were a bit flexible.

                      Also if the family didn't celebrate birthdays loosing count would be easy and I suspect many years of birth were based on "how old are you" well that would mean born in...
                      Albert Cadosch knocked almost a decade off his age when he entered into the bigamous marriage to Elizabeth Stobart - and was presumably credible in so doing.
                      "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

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                      • #41
                        Returning to the date discrepancy in Nichols' letter, it occurs to me that she may have dated it earlier than it was written so as to make her concerned father believe that she had left the workhouse for gainful employment rather earlier than was actually the case.
                        "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
                          Returning to the date discrepancy in Nichols' letter, it occurs to me that she may have dated it earlier than it was written so as to make her concerned father believe that she had left the workhouse for gainful employment rather earlier than was actually the case.
                          That crossed my mind as well, but I wonder if in April she would have already known about where she would be and what she would be doing. Would she be told with this type of advance? And wouldn't the letter be specific enough (the address, postal markings, etc.) to make it possible to know where she was?

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Debra A View Post
                            Hi MS

                            Thanks. That's probably the explanation because the Lambeth, Renfrew Road workhouse creed register has a Mary Ann Nichols aged 39, charwoman being admitted on 8 February 1881 and discharged on 26th May 1881 (136 years to the day!) which covers the date of the census, meaning she was there for the 1881 census as some books have stated.

                            This rules out the Mary Ann Nichols in Newington casual ward that I mentioned earlier, appearing several times in 1881 and born in 1852, the same year of birth given by Mary Ann Nichols in the Lambeth workhouse and other institutions in 1887/88.


                            Strangely, the older Mary Ann Nichols (49) who appears in the 1881 census at Lambeth workhouse is in the same creed register too, further down the same page, but is noted as being admitted May 26th 1881 and discharged June 17th to police. So she wasn't there for the census but is listed on the census for that institution!
                            That's odd.

                            Mary Ann Monk also appears in this same Lambeth workhouse Renfrew Road creed register for 1880/81
                            Just reading back through these old posts. One of the reasons that Polly won't appear in the workhouse records during the 1881 census is because she was being given a maintenance by William. This maintenance was designed to keep her out of the workhouse and living independently of the parish. However, this doesn't mean that she wouldn't turn up in the casual wards if she spent it all.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Madam Detective View Post
                              Just reading back through these old posts. One of the reasons that Polly won't appear in the workhouse records during the 1881 census is because she was being given a maintenance by William. This maintenance was designed to keep her out of the workhouse and living independently of the parish. However, this doesn't mean that she wouldn't turn up in the casual wards if she spent it all.
                              You are probably right. The interesting thing is there are three women named Mary Ann Nichols in the Lambeth workhouse records from 81 onwards. One (a) is much older and not the right woman, one (b) is the same age as the woman we are interested in and was in and out in 1881, and one is younger (c) but exactly the same age as the age we definitely know Mary Ann Nichols passed herself of as in the workhouse (William is mentioned in her settlement records) and she doesn't turn up in Lambeth workhouse until 1883. She does correspond to the age of the casual ward user in 1881 though.

                              One (a) appears in the the Lambeth workhouse in the 1881 census, but she is too old to be the Mary Ann Nichols we are interested in. But checking the creed registers of Lambeth workhouse, which record the admission and discharge dates of inmates, shows that this older MA Nichols (a) was not actually in the workhouse at the time of the 1881 census in April 1881 but the woman who is the same age (b), was, even though she isn't listed on teh 1881 census!..It's puzzling. Perhaps the person who compiled the creed register or the person who filled out the 1881 census return seem to have got their Mary Ann's in a twist.
                              ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                              I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

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                              • #45
                                Might be "the younger version" of Mary Ann Nichols in the Ailie Street hospital for the 1881 Census.
                                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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