What Direction Was Polly Travelling When She Was Killed?

[John G]

Chapman works for most of them.

No he doesn't!

[John G]

I don't think that looking for more than one killer is going to help solve the mystery, Simon, when we haven't even found one

But there had to be more than one killer, i.e. neither Chapman or Bury could have killed the latter victims that have been potentially linked to JtR.

[Batman]

Hi Simon,

Well, obviously it's a complete absurdity, not to say impossibility, for every victim associated with JtR to have been killed by a single killer: C5, Torso victims, Chapman's wives, McKenzie, Coles, Smith, Tabram, Ronan, Austin, Ellen Bury, Elizabeth Roberts (well, if you believe in Jill the Ripper!)

Chapman works for most of them.

[John G]

Hi John G,

Well—but only if you believe it—five minutes on a rain-slicked pavement in Mitre Square for the evisceration of Eddowes doesn't exactly make Jack a slouch.

Thompson is a red herring, an also-ran, just another of the 365 suspects—all as unlikely as the others—in C J Morley's new edition of his JtR suspects book.

Belief in Jack is preventing us from solving the mystery.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

Well, obviously it's a complete absurdity, not to say impossibility, for every victim associated with JtR to have been killed by a single killer: C5, Torso victims, Chapman's wives, McKenzie, Coles, Smith, Tabram, Ronan, Austin, Ellen Bury, Elizabeth Roberts (well, if you believe in Jill the Ripper!)

However, that's not to say that the argument that all of these victims were killed by different people isn't equally absurd, particulary as the evidence against any individual is incredibly flimsy-apart from William Bury in respect of Ellen, or Chapman and his "wives".

I consider Thompson the best of a very bad bunch.

We don't know exactly how long it took to eviscerate Eddowes, or the level of skill that was apparent.

[Sam Flynn]

Belief in Jack is preventing us from solving the mystery.

I don't think that looking for more than one killer is going to help solve the mystery, Simon, when we haven't even found one

[Simon Wood]

Hi John G,

Well—but only if you believe it—five minutes on a rain-slicked pavement in Mitre Square for the evisceration of Eddowes doesn't exactly make Jack a slouch.

Thompson is a red herring, an also-ran, just another of the 365 suspects—all as unlikely as the others—in C J Morley's new edition of his JtR suspects book.

Belief in Jack is preventing us from solving the mystery.

Regards,

Simon

[John G]

Hi Batman,

There are no solid leads in this case.

Believing that a guy known as Jack the Ripper stalked the East End, and ascribing all manner of lightning surgical skills to him, is the biggest obstacle we face in attempting to solve the mystery of the Whitechapel murders.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

Does anyone subscribe to this theory? By that, I essentially mean JtR operated with "lightning surgical skills." Well, apart from maybe Dr Phillips!

Mind you, if he did I guess that's great news in respect of one of my favoured candidates, Francis Thompson, who spent seven years training as a surgeon.

And if they're "no solid leads in this case", why do you believe each of the C5 victims were murdered by different killers?

[Batman]

Hi Batman,

There are no solid leads in this case.

Believing that a guy known as Jack the Ripper stalked the East End, and ascribing all manner of lightning surgical skills to him, is the biggest obstacle we face in attempting to solve the mystery of the Whitechapel murders.

Regards,

Simon

I think the geoprofiling model is something he couldn't have foreseen anymore than he could have foreseen DNA profiling.

If any serial case can apply that model, it is this one because it is so old.

He couldn't have known.

The only question we have is if we should use the Commuter model or the Marauder model.

If he commutes and arrives at the center of the geoprofile, then we would expect him to kill in a very short distance around the area he arrives in and not to take many precautions about being seen because he doesn't believe anyone will recognize him.

If he is a Marauder then he will strike out further from the central area because he is local. He will also be concerned about being seen.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Batman,

There are no solid leads in this case.

Believing that a guy known as Jack the Ripper stalked the East End, and ascribing all manner of lightning surgical skills to him, is the biggest obstacle we face in attempting to solve the mystery of the Whitechapel murders.

Regards,

Simon

[Batman]

Yep Batman, good points.

Again, it's simple and logical.

Also, JtR couldn't have known about geoprofiling at the time because it's a 90s discovery. It works on the basis that subconsciously they will do this and therefore triangulate their position mathematically within areas of probability for where they live/work.

Today forensic awareness of this by offenders changes things up a bit, but back in 1888, no way!

I think this is one of the few solid leads we have in this case.

[barnflatwyngarde]

It's certainly interesting to speculate this because if you include Martha Tabram as JtR's 'first victim', she fits a central area at the George's Yard buildings with attacks radiating outwards in different directions from this point. It could be that JtR decided to poop where he eats, so to speak. So to throw off the scent, he murdered Nichols further away from his home. He continues this radiating out in different directions to avoid the focus on George Yard buildings. It works. Tabram is no longer a JtR victim. He keeps striking outwards because it works.

This makes heaps of sense to me.

Yep Batman, good points.

Again, it's simple and logical.

[Batman]

When we ask that question it is reasonable to conjecture that possibly this was the murderers first "kill", and that he chose to do it where he wouldn't have far to travel to his refuge, either home or work.

It's certainly interesting to speculate this because if you include Martha Tabram as JtR's 'first victim', she fits a central area at the George's Yard buildings with attacks radiating outwards in different directions from this point. It could be that JtR decided to poop where he eats, so to speak. So to throw off the scent, he murdered Nichols further away from his home. He continues this radiating out in different directions to avoid the focus on George Yard buildings. It works. Tabram is no longer a JtR victim. He keeps striking outwards because it works.

This makes heaps of sense to me.

[barnflatwyngarde]

A week later, the same killer would literally kill somebody outside MULTIPLE people's house! I don't think applying the logic of you, a presumed non-murderer, to the Ripper will get you anywhere.

DM, check out my original post again.

I am asking why he chose to kill Polly just as the street merges into occupied housing.

Eastward is factory units, surely less risky for a would be murderer.

"I don't think applying the logic of you, a presumed non-murderer, to the Ripper will get you anywhere."

I am not trying to get "anywhere"!

I replied to a post by Steve earlier on the boards, in it I said that in my opinion, seemingly small clues in the case may just yield the greatest return.

So again, why did the killer choose to kill Nichols where he did (while acknowledging that Simon Wood posits the theory that Polly was actually killed in Winthrop Street) when there were far safer potential murder sites just up the road?

When we ask that question it is reasonable to conjecture that possibly this was the murderers first "kill", and that he chose to do it where he wouldn't have far to travel to his refuge, either home or work.

[MrBarnett]

My guess would be excluding entering via Brown's yard that she came from Court street or more likely Woods Buildings. With the possibility of going to HB first.


Steve

I've always thought that in the early hours HB's yard must have had its attractions for cold/tired/hungry/thirsty unfortunates. At 3.30 am there couldn't have been too many places where a woman might hope to cadge something to eat or drink or have a warm up by the boilers.

[Batman]

Casting suspicion on a witness is throughout all of the history of notorious serial crimes and even non-serial ones and is a reason why plenty of witnesses refuse to acknowledge they are one, lest they cast suspicion on themselves. Who hasn't thought a witness was possibly JtR? Be it a witness at any of the canonical crimes. That's probably why PCs looked closely at them and they got investigated. I am just surprised that someone has run with the idea a ripper witness was the murderer. It's the kind of thing one thinks about maybe for a few moments and then gets that such scenarios were likely gone over by investigators at the time.