Double throat cuts

[Elamarna]

Steve,

I could easily say that the cuts you speak about were "a failure". But I donīt like thinking that way so I do not say it.

I prefer data.

Cheers, Pierre

While i agree. The orginal question was for suggestions why?
Not sure what reliable data we are likely to have on if two or more cuts are made because of failure of the first, confessions of killers perhaps?
I seriously doubt there is any meaniful data from the 19th century on such.
Paul's data may give a more modern perspective.

I think it really is just speculation on possible reasons. None of which I fear can be supported by data.

Steve

[kjab3112]

Pierre

Here's a link to a South African series of all neck injuries, demonstrating how rare that degree of injury is

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00268-008-9766-7

PS there is an obvious survivor bias but this is probably as good as it gets in terms of numbers, and strangely no one is meta-analysing homicidal neck wounds

[Wickerman]

Hi Wickerman,

I donīt know what to make of this (excerpt from the article in your reference):

"The evidence given by Dr. Phillips on 18 Sept. at the Hanbury-street inquest is incontrovertible proof that Annie Chapman was partially strangled before her throat was cut. When Dr. Phillips was called to see the body he found that


THE TONGUE PROTRUDED
between the front teeth, but not beyond the lips. The face was swollen, the finger-nails and lips were turgid, and in the brain, on the head being opened, he found the membranes opaque and the veins and tissues loaded with black blood. All these appearances are the ordinary signs of suffocation."

Is this something I can belive in?

Pierre

I would expect so, there is no reason to not believe it.
Some of what is written in that paragraph is a direct quote from inquest testimony published on Sept. 14th.
The mention of "18 Sept" in that paragraph is a misprint for 13th Sept.

[jerryd]

While i agree. The orginal question was for suggestions why?
Not sure what reliable data we are likely to have on if two or more cuts are made because of failure of the first, confessions of killers perhaps?
I seriously doubt there is any meaniful data from the 19th century on such.
Paul's data may give a more modern perspective.

I think it really is just speculation on possible reasons. None of which I fear can be supported by data.

Steve

Hi Steve,

Again, regarding Alice McKenzie. I did find another detail of the inquest reported by the London Evening News. Dr. Phillips states the first incision seems to have been interrupted by the prominence of the lower jaw.
So Phillips felt it was in fact the first cut that was interrupted. I wasn't sure about that in my earlier post.

This to me could be a possible 'botched' attempt by the killer and he felt he needed another cut to complete his work. The killer may have had enough with the first incision to already kill her, but he was unsure and gave it another go.

[Wickerman]

In Chapman's case the the two cuts are in effect one continuous cut which overlapped each other. Wickerman submitted a drawing sometime back to demonstrate this. Doctor Philips observed that an attempt had been made to separate the vertebrae in the neck, raising the possibility that an attempt had been made to decapitate Chapman. I am of the opinion that the killer attempted the same procedure in the Nichols murder.

Perhaps this?

[Robert St Devil]

is there any implication observer that, by "overlapped", dr phillips means that the ripper cut in the same place twice, leaving those two nick marks on the vertebra illustrated by wickerman? like cutting a head of lettuce in half twice

[Pierre]

This though is a massive sample of medicolegal autopsies, yet throat cut homicide is incredibly rare. There are other series which compare suicidal (rare), accidental (very rare) and homicidal, neck sharp wounds.

The deeper wounds are near inevitably homicidal, but still a mere fraction of the total. Unfortunately I can only access the abstracts and a summary on forensicmed.

One needs to remember the sternocleidomastoid muscles are a couple of cm thick and although the larynx is fairly superficial, the carotid artery and jugular vein are deep to the muscle in a normal neck position

Paul

Hi Paul,

Do you think this rare type of wound, i.e. what you call deeper wounds, can be caused by normal individuals with normal strenght - this is of course testable - or do you think it demands stronger individuals?

Pierre

[kjab3112]

I see no reason a normal strength person couldn't cut through muscle and cartilage with a sharp enough knife

Paul

[Pierre]

I see no reason a normal strength person couldn't cut through muscle and cartilage with a sharp enough knife

Paul

I see. Thanks Paul.

Pierre

[Jon Guy]

Hi Pierre

In murders where there were throat cuts: how common were such cuts?

Specifically, which sort of throat cuts do you refer to ?
Double throat cuts ?

Were all / some of these cuts "tentative"?

What does a suggestion about a cut being "tentative" say about the Whitechapel killer - if anything at all?

Tentative was just an adjective I picked in reference to Dr Brown`s superficial cut reference. Also, cos I wasn`t sure Dr Brown was referring to a second cut.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Jon Guy;421922]

Hi Pierre

Specifically, which sort of throat cuts do you refer to ?
Double throat cuts ?

Yes, double cuts. Were they common?

Pierre

[Jon Guy]

[QUOTE=Pierre;421927]

Yes, double cuts. Were they common?

Pierre

I haven`t come across many.

[Robert St Devil]

Hi Robert, interesting idea. It seems to me that if this was the purpose then a more central cut would have the best chance of accomplishing this, rather than a cut on one side only....

...if he had already attacked the throat, why only do half a job and have to cut it completely later? I think it was Phillips who said Stride's cut could have been done in two seconds...that seems like a good investment of time for a killer to make sure his victim was dead, before embarking on more prolonged mutilations.

hi joshua. that higher shorter cut does not appear to have the similar intent of his "lustier" facial cuts and mutilations; it's not fanciful, like when he draws his knife in a zagging pattern on mary's arm or cuts checkmarks into catherine's face... and there's no reports of him removing any organs of the throat SO i doubt it was made for any purposes akin to his abdominal mutilations... and since it's debatable whether the major throat cut is an aspect of his lustful 'ritual' OR his modus, i can't determine if any injury to her throat is satiating his desire or, rather, purposeful in removing life and/or evidence. if it's purposeful cut, maybe he is depressurizing her blood pressure to reduce the potential for arterial spray.

{in my scenario, polly nicholls is lying on the ground when both cuts are made. i'm running into an obstacle when considering that he blitzkrieged her with a quick stab to her throat while both are standing. Wouldn't you think that the higher shorter cut would have cut the strings of her jolly new bonnet (damned! if noone reported on the its condition)?}

[Michael W Richards]

[QUOTE=Pierre;421927]

Yes, double cuts. Were they common?

Pierre

They are very uncommon Pierre, and as such should be one of the defining signatures one looks for when assessing a probable suspect. Polly and Annie looked similar, were similar ages, were both actively soliciting at the time they meet their killer, and they both have double cuts to the spine. That's Victimology, Signature and Methodolgy all in one,...but people over the years seem to prefer creating a broader profile of the killer after these 2 murders, despite the specificities and similarities, so they can then assume more of the unsolved murders were by the same person.

Its how Jack is born. The man who kills and mutilates 2 women in a very specific manner after meeting and subduing them while they solicited, and miraculously he just decides hes scared and cuts the next one just once, the next one he botches his extractions and severs the colon, and the next one he finds by sneaking into a small self contained courtyard with a narrow tunnel.

This was never a series of Five, it's been a mismatched group.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Michael W Richards;421948][QUOTE=Pierre;421927]

They are very uncommon

Hi Michael,

Is there a source for this?

Pierre, and as such should be one of the defining signatures one looks for when assessing a probable suspect.

And so we need statistical data for it. If it was common there is no way to connect the type to some specific individual.

Cheers, Pierre