Throat cutting in Victorian London.....

[The Station Cat]

I would be interested to know, whether throat cutting was a "regular" occurrence in Victorian London? Can anyone offer any evidence of other cases solved or otherwise when the victim had their throat cut?

The more I read on the Whitechapel murders, the less convinced I am that Stride was in fact a victim of Jack and that it is purely coincidental that she died on the same night as Eddowes and had had her throat cut. If we are to include her as a victim of Jack, why then is there such speculation as to whether Mckenzie & Coles are Jack's work? Are we to conclude that throat cutting equates to Jack? I don't buy the copy cat killer theory either, I suspect that however brutal this method is, it certainly occurred more regularly than is commonly excepted?

But please if you can, restore my beliefs that Stride was "done" by Jack?

[John Wheat]

I would be interested to know, whether throat cutting was a "regular" occurrence in Victorian London? Can anyone offer any evidence of other cases solved or otherwise when the victim had their throat cut?

The more I read on the Whitechapel murders, the less convinced I am that Stride was in fact a victim of Jack and that it is purely coincidental that she died on the same night as Eddowes and had had her throat cut. If we are to include her as a victim of Jack, why then is there such speculation as to whether Mckenzie & Coles are Jack's work? Are we to conclude that throat cutting equates to Jack? I don't buy the copy cat killer theory either, I suspect that however brutal this method is, it certainly occurred more regularly than is commonly excepted?

But please if you can, restore my beliefs that Stride was "done" by Jack?

To The Station Cat

I don't believe throat cutting/violent murders were actually that common in late 1800's London. They were for instance hardly any violent murders in Whitechapel in the two years before 1888.

Cheers John

[The Station Cat]

To The Station Cat

I don't believe throat cutting/violent murders were actually that common in late 1800's London. They were for instance hardly any violent murders in Whitechapel in the two years before 1888.

Cheers John

Really? Well that is interesting and that does surprise me. What about after, did Jack set a trend? I assume that domestic violence (without murder) and violence in general was a common theme in Whitechapel? Would be interesting to know how many murders occurred before, during and after "Jack", and what the MO of those murders was. One only has to think of PC Thompson's murder (a police officer) stabbed in the neck in broad day light, to conclude that Whitechapel wasn't somewhere for the faint hearted to live...

[Robert St Devil]

In a previous post, i said that throat-cutting was the ,East End Hello,. In the 10Sep Morning Advertiser, a bling man is reported of going Matt Murdoch and stabbing his companion. A November edition of the Illustrated Police recalls an incident, strangely familiar to Jack the Ripper, of a prostitute being stabbed in her bedroom by an anonymous stranger; the incident had occurred 20+ years prior. There,s the woman stabbed by her sister in Miller,s Court. There,s all the other suspected victims who probably weren,t Jack,s victims.

On its own, a throat attack isn,t enough to indicate Jack the Ripper,s method. It,s the attempted decapitation, the enigmatic method of murdering women silently in public places and other factors that seemingly comprise his identity.

[Harry D]

If we are to include her as a victim of Jack, why then is there such speculation as to whether Mckenzie & Coles are Jack's work?

Had Stride been killed in 1889 or 1891, I'm sure she would be among the non-canonicals. However, the fact remains that her throat was slashed within an hour of another Ripper victim, and she was dispatched in a similar vein to the other victims, absence of mutilations aside.

[Rosella]

It depends what you mean by throatcutting of course. Cutting one's own throat with a razor was a fairly typical method of suicide in Victorian times with few more sophisticated methods available.

[John G]

Throat cutting murders were incredibly uncommon at the time. For instance, in 1888 I believe there was only one other example in the whole of London ( pop, 5.6 million), outside of the C5. Statistics also reveal that in 1887 only 11 female adults were murdered by way of knife, and in 1889 there were also 11: see http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...651#post314651

Interestingly, there were 17 such murders in 1888, which was clearly an anomalous year. Of course, the six additional victims could be accounted for by the C5 plus Tabram.

[c.d.]

Hello Cat,

I'm afraid that if you are looking for overwhelming, beyond a shadow of a doubt evidence that Stride was a Ripper victim you are going to be disappointed. Unfortunately, it boils down to what is more likely.

I would suggest that you turn the question around and see if you can make an airtight case for Stride's killing to be domestic. You have a woman who is linked to prostitution by herself on the streets late at night. There is no apparent motive for her killing. No one heard any sort of argument (post B.S. man) and she was not hit or stabbed anywhere on her body. The police investigation could not uncover anyone who would have had a motive to kill her. Couple this with the possibility that Jack might have been interrupted before he had the opportunity to mutilate her and that if you believe Eddowes was a Ripper victim then Jack was out that night not far away.

To me, Jack being her killer is much more likely.

c.d.

[Joshua Rogan]

It depends what you mean by throatcutting of course. Cutting one's own throat with a razor was a fairly typical method of suicide in Victorian times with few more sophisticated methods available.

Yes, awful as it sounds, both doctors at Stride's inquest testified that they had seen self-inflicted wounds that were as bad or worse than her cut throat.

Dr Phillips: "I have seen several self-inflicted wounds more extensive than this one, but then they have not usually involved the carotid artery."

Dr Blackwell: "I have myself seen many equally severe wounds self-inflicted. "

[Rosella]

In 1888 London police dealt with 28 cases of murder, 94 of manslaughter. Roughly half were female victims. There were 14 unsolved murders in 1888. Besides the C-5 and Emma Smith, Martha Tabram, Rose Mylett and the unknown torso at Scotland Yard,there were

Emma Wakefield -Botched abortion.
Elizabeth Smith -possible drowning after being left drunk.
Elizabeth Gorman -Botched abortion.
Annie Mary French-Chloroform poisoning (lover suspected)
Lucy Clark - death by blunt instrument in course of robbery.

Jan Bondeson in Rivals of the Ripper investigates many cases of females being murdered. In seven between 1872 and 1888 there are five in which the women are bludgeoned to death with a heavy instrument, in one a strangulation also occurs. In another the throat is also cut. In one no cause of death could be found due to lapse of time between death and the body being discovered and one woman, a prostitute, dies from a cut throat by knife or razor.

[Trevor Marriott]

Throat cutting murders were incredibly uncommon at the time. For instance, in 1888 I believe there was only one other example in the whole of London ( pop, 5.6 million), outside of the C5. Statistics also reveal that in 1887 only 11 female adults were murdered by way of knife, and in 1889 there were also 11: see http://forum.casebook.org/showthread...651#post314651

Interestingly, there were 17 such murders in 1888, which was clearly an anomalous year. Of course, the six additional victims could be accounted for by the C5 plus Tabram.

Did you by any chance look at the figures of throat cutting relative to males ?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[MrBarnett]

Did you by any chance look at the figures of throat relative to males ?

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Or examples where the victim survived?

I'm sure this list isn't exhaustive (it excludes Annie Farmer, for instance):


Lucy Clarke, Marylebone - February, 1888.

Lucretia Pembroke, Bermondsey - December, 1888.

Amy Howarth, Islington - August, 1888. (Attempted)

Jane Haberfield, Kennington - September, 1888.

Sarah Brett, Peckham - October, 1888.

Rose Payne, Limehouse - January, 1889.

Caroline Butler, Rotherhithe - January, 1889.

[John G]

Or examples where the victim survived?

I'm sure this list isn't exhaustive (it excludes Annie Farmer, for instance):


Lucy Clarke, Marylebone - February, 1888.

Lucretia Pembroke, Bermondsey - December, 1888.

Amy Howarth, Islington - August, 1888. (Attempted)

Jane Haberfield, Kennington - September, 1888.

Sarah Brett, Peckham - October, 1888.

Rose Payne, Limehouse - January, 1889.

Caroline Butler, Rotherhithe - January, 1889.

Murder was clearly very rare, although I'm sure violent assault wasn't. In any event, this is comparing apples with pears.

[The Station Cat]

Hello Cat,

I'm afraid that if you are looking for overwhelming, beyond a shadow of a doubt evidence that Stride was a Ripper victim you are going to be disappointed. Unfortunately, it boils down to what is more likely.

I would suggest that you turn the question around and see if you can make an airtight case for Stride's killing to be domestic. You have a woman who is linked to prostitution by herself on the streets late at night. There is no apparent motive for her killing. No one heard any sort of argument (post B.S. man) and she was not hit or stabbed anywhere on her body. The police investigation could not uncover anyone who would have had a motive to kill her. Couple this with the possibility that Jack might have been interrupted before he had the opportunity to mutilate her and that if you believe Eddowes was a Ripper victim then Jack was out that night not far away.

To me, Jack being her killer is much more likely.

c.d.

CD, you certainly make a very compelling argument!!! Having mulled it over, I think your right. Stride is back in the C5.

[The Station Cat]

Yes, awful as it sounds, both doctors at Stride's inquest testified that they had seen self-inflicted wounds that were as bad or worse than her cut throat.

Dr Phillips: "I have seen several self-inflicted wounds more extensive than this one, but then they have not usually involved the carotid artery."

Dr Blackwell: "I have myself seen many equally severe wounds self-inflicted. "

That is very interesting!!!